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+--- Thread: What will it take? (/showthread.php?tid=1126)
RE: What will it take? - yousnoozeyoulose - 16-02-2022
Stuff is all over shop these days, so I'd be hard pressed to call it left leaning.
Saying that, what a person chooses to read on these news websites usually clouds their opinion of the website in general. I'm sure the NZ Herald has positive things to say about Ardern, but I don't tend to read something I already know...
RE: What will it take? - SueDonim - 16-02-2022
(15-02-2022, 03:10 PM)king1 Wrote:(15-02-2022, 02:35 PM)dken31 Wrote: The thing is the vaccine does clearly reduce hospitalisation but it also clearly causes harm to some people. Therefore, it needs to be a personal choice like medical treatment has generally been in free open societies. My point re. the limited benefit to others of a person being vaccinated is relevant as that determines whether or not it is reasonable for society to impose its collective will on the individual. In this case, there is just no clear scientific evidence that you're at greater risk of catching Covid from someone choosing to remain unvaccinated (and soon even those who choose not to get the third dose will also be classified as "not fully vaccinated") than you are from a fully vaccinated person. Therefore, it is immoral to limit peoples freedoms based on their personal choice in this matter.
And to the "it's just a little jab, what are you afraid of" comments: it is equally valid to say "it's just a cold, what are you afraid of", particularly with regard to Omicron.
and generally speaking this is a free and open society - if you choose not to be treated for Herpes no one will care - but covid is different and highly transmissible without much effort, and life threatening to some - you should not be surprised to have restrictions imposed on you by society if you choose not to get vaccinated...
The key difference here is where you say " there is just no clear scientific evidence ", we (the other 95%) say " Abundance of caution".
If you choose not to treat your herpes, you still have a responsibility to take care not to pass it to others. If you choose to not be vaccinated against Covid, you have a responsibility to avoid infecting others, including your family.
Because the disease is so infectious and now so widespread, Society, in the form of the Government, has enabled a reasonable compromise in that everyone, vaccinated or not, can still go about the necessities of daily life, but that some high-risk situations and social contact should be limited for those who don't have vaccine protection. That is perfectly reasonable. And the wearing of masks is simple common sense, but as usual some don't have any common sense.
"...it is equally valid to say "it's just a cold, what are you afraid of", particularly with regard to Omicron." It's bad enough that we have evolved a culture that accepts people passing on their common cold rather than keeping to themselves, but this cannot be compared to Omicron in any way. Omicron is exhibiting the potential to be milder than the alpha variant, but the difference is largely due to vaccination. In CAN still KILL, especially in unvaccinated people. And even those who have a mild illness may still get long covid which doesn't happen after a simple cold.
"...[whether or not it is reasonable for society to impose its collective will on the individual]...". We impose our collective will on the individual in lots of areas, both with regard to safety and also just the daily rules that allow us freedoms that also require us to not impact negatively on other people, the environment and all sorts of things. We accept road rules. We accept seatbelts. We accept drug laws. We accept ........ [the list goes on, with "We" = to the majority of people].
Unvaccinated people run a greater risk of catching covid, of being seriously ill from it and even of dying. In taking that risk they run a greater risk of impacting wider society by passing it on to others, or by using hospital/medical services that they would otherwise not need. The risk of having the vaccine is miniscule compared to the risk of serious and/or long term impact from covid.
The bottom line is that there was no mandate to force people to get vaccinated. Just rules put in place to try to protect those who are unprotected, and to a limited degree everyone else as well. If they don't like it, get vaccinated. If they don't want to be vaccinated, then stay home where it's safe.
(15-02-2022, 03:41 PM)Magoo Wrote: the unvaxxed think its a punishment.
its not, its a health measure. if they choose to ignore it thats fine.
but for those of us who dont want to ignore the science/leadership the need to remain isolated from the unvaxxed is paramount. i dont believe for one minute that the odds of vaccine leading to significant health problems make it untenable. a little discomfort i exchange for what. i do not want to hear nit pick about this case or that case. one in millions. fact.
those who dont ignore the science cannot cater to the bottom 5%. sorry. i keep hearing about fair.
is it fair to compromise someone elses health? is it fair to hinder people going about their business with no finite end in sight?
After this protesting shit the publics mood has gone from ambivalence about the anti's, to dislike. they shot themselves in their unshod dirty foot.
This. With bells on.
RE: What will it take? - Lilith7 - 16-02-2022
(15-02-2022, 03:41 PM)Magoo Wrote: the unvaxxed think its a punishment.
its not, its a health measure. if they choose to ignore it thats fine.
but for those of us who dont want to ignore the science/leadership the need to remain isolated from the unvaxxed is paramount. i dont believe for one minute that the odds of vaccine leading to significant health problems make it untenable. a little discomfort i exchange for what. i do not want to hear nit pick about this case or that case. one in millions. fact.
those who dont ignore the science cannot cater to the bottom 5%. sorry. i keep hearing about fair.
is it fair to compromise someone elses health? is it fair to hinder people going about their business with no finite end in sight?
After this protesting shit the publics mood has gone from ambivalence about the anti's, to dislike. they shot themselves in their unshod dirty foot.
That does seem to hit the nail squarely on the head. Everyone's well & truly fed up with covid & having to live differently because of it & the sooner we can get a majority vaccinated so they're not such a risk to others, the better.
RE: What will it take? - Oldfellah - 16-02-2022
Poor Brian, I bet he is chomping at the bit to be there
In a statement, Chris Bishop, the shadow Leader of the House, said Mallard's behaviour in recent days has been "unedifying, embarrassing and childish" and said it had "appalled" New Zealanders.
It has? where what how, did I miss the poll?
If it were up to me the sprinklers would have been turned on full bore not just on soak and the music would have been turned on just as the so called protesters were heading off to bed, then crank the volume up, add a few fire fighting helicopters with monsoon buckets and soak the lot of them, half of them look as though they could do with a wash.
RE: What will it take? - king1 - 16-02-2022
(16-02-2022, 09:57 AM)Olive Wrote:That might explain why I found this article on their site(16-02-2022, 09:17 AM)king1 Wrote: BrackenStuff? The publisher of John Bishop's reckons among many other right wingers?
"Not really up there with a Colmar Brunton poll"
" never use an internet poll "
- type of poll wasn't stipulated in the post by king1
" right leaning media organisation " - king1, can you give an example of a left-leaning media organisation?
Stuff
The only even mildly left-leaning Aotearoa publisher I can think of is The Spinoff
https://thespinoff.co.nz/media/19-11-2021/rip-centrism-why-stuff-is-gradually-moving-left-while-the-herald-inches-right
RE: What will it take? - yousnoozeyoulose - 16-02-2022
(15-02-2022, 09:51 AM)ObeWan Wrote: My DIL who lives in Picton tells me they have been given until 5pm wednesday to relocate to another reserve (but strictly no overnight camping) or they will be removed.
Might be interesting to go and watch!
And true to form, they've voted to go back on their word and will stay where they are. Are we not surprised?!
RE: What will it take? - Magoo - 16-02-2022
Seems like a good time to commit crime
there appears to be some sort of amnesty.
commit without consequence.
the army should deal with it.
the cops are fucken impotent, incompetent, scaredy cat bitches.
weaklings and excuse makers, all the while snouts buried in the public purse paying them to deal with crime.
we should demand last weeks wages back off the bumbling milquetoasts
the unbridled troughing is most porcine
RE: What will it take? - king1 - 16-02-2022
Right Magoo, time to fess up... do you actually know of all these lovely words you use in your prose (as good as it gets for me), or are you sitting there thumbing through a thesaurus as you type?
RE: What will it take? - Magoo - 16-02-2022
if the police tiptoe around too long there are citizens happy to take care of it themselves.
when that starts both the cops and the scumbags are going to wish they had acted.
(16-02-2022, 04:19 PM)king1 Wrote: Right Magoo, time to fess up... do you actually know of all these lovely words you use in your prose (as good as it gets for me), or are you sitting there thumbing through a thesaurus as you type?
i disavow any knowledge, ken or cognizance of any thesaurus. the rarest of the dinosaurs.
that thesaurus thing sounds awfully close to research kingi, something i am acutely disinclined to undertake.
its all out of my tortured walnut im afraid.
RE: What will it take? - dken31 - 17-02-2022
https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/02/17/sir-russell-coutts-heading-to-parliament-anti-mandate-protests/
Good to see a bit of high profile support, and generally see that the protest is growing in size and legitimacy. Even Mallard is clearly beginning to realise that they're going to have to talk to the protestors eventually and is desperately trying to pretend that he still has some control over the situation.
RE: What will it take? - king1 - 18-02-2022
The small dilemma Labour have created for themselves is if they send anyone in to clear the cars/people they are going to have the "that's not being kind" thing thrown back at them...
RE: What will it take? - Magoo - 18-02-2022
lol russell coutts
he knows all about being hated.
hes real...influential
somewhere im sure.
(18-02-2022, 07:13 AM)king1 Wrote: The small dilemma Labour have created for themselves is if they send anyone in to clear the cars/people they are going to have the "that's not being kind" thing thrown back at them...twas to be expected lets face it.
lots of talk very little action, im surprised they didnt put someone truly experienced in not getting anything done
in charge of it, like phil twyford. their pool of dumbass runs deep.
as for our police force... my already dim view of how the laws are applied in this country is confirmed. Selectively.
trying to arrest or prosecute anyone for trespass after this will be met with laughter.
impotent cuckolds.
RE: What will it take? - yousnoozeyoulose - 18-02-2022
(18-02-2022, 07:19 AM)Magoo Wrote: lol russell coutts
he knows all about being hated.
hes real...influential
somewhere im sure.
But are they going to tow his yacht?
RE: What will it take? - SueDonim - 18-02-2022
(17-02-2022, 08:45 PM)dken31 Wrote: https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/02/17/sir-russell-coutts-heading-to-parliament-anti-mandate-protests/
Good to see a bit of high profile support, and generally see that the protest is growing in size and legitimacy. Even Mallard is clearly beginning to realise that they're going to have to talk to the protestors eventually and is desperately trying to pretend that he still has some control over the situation.
From the article "“I'm also strongly opposed to the ever increasing erosion of our human rights and the growing limitations on our freedom of choice. I believe in having the freedom to be able to question so-called 'expert' opinion.”"
"Ever increasing erosion of human rights in lots of areas" IS something to complain about and is relevant to MANY things this and the previous government have done, but is NOT a factor in the covid response. What the protestors are perceiving as mask and vaccine "mandates" are just a standardising of what we all need to be doing to protect ourselves and maintain our society as much as possible. The fact that so many people are too dumb to understand that is the real problem.
"...freedom to be able to question so-called 'expert' opinion". So he thinks he knows more than the experts? Maybe we should all tell him how to sail a yacht. That IS the equivalent analogy. He's also forgetting that we don't have to just listen to the experts. Because of the internet and the generosity of the publishing world, we can actually look at the source information ourselves as much as we wish, and can therefore assess the opinion of said experts and watch how things change as the virus changes and/or the scientists learn more about it.
At least he did have the brains to get vaccinated. Mallard and the pollies are stuck between a rock and hard place knowing that forcing a resolution could come at a huge cost, but in the meantime there is also a huge cost to the people who live and try to work in central Wellington. The protestors are not part of any specific entity and there is no one to send the bill to, which is a huge pity. They should be held responsible for the mayhem they have caused.
RE: What will it take? - Magoo - 18-02-2022
the labour party will learn the true cost in the next election if something isnt done and this is allowed to drag on.
im already seeing plywood and tarp structures.
RE: What will it take? - Lilith7 - 18-02-2022
(17-02-2022, 08:45 PM)dken31 Wrote: https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/02/17/sir-russell-coutts-heading-to-parliament-anti-mandate-protests/“I'm also strongly opposed to the ever increasing erosion of our human rights and the growing limitations on our freedom of choice. I believe in having the freedom to be able to question so-called 'expert' opinion.”
Good to see a bit of high profile support, and generally see that the protest is growing in size and legitimacy. Even Mallard is clearly beginning to realise that they're going to have to talk to the protestors eventually and is desperately trying to pretend that he still has some control over the situation.
Because Russell Coutts is so very well known as an expert in vaccination...oh no, wait - he isn't. "Increasing erosion of our human rights" my derriere. If he knows a more effective way to deal with the virus other than vaccination then let's hear it; no doubt medical scientists everywhere will be fascinated. Or something.
Nobody wants vaccination to be mandatory. But nobody much wants to die of covid, either.
However it is obviously, his choice if he so wishes to become ill or die from covid rather than have a vaccination.
What is not his choice is to infect others, if he happens to catch covid. And that's the point, as most people are able to comprehend.
RE: What will it take? - Oh_hunnihunni - 18-02-2022
I have a problem with the Army being called in. A nation's military should never ever be used against its own citizens. Never.
Backing up the Police might be a good reason, but it still would make me - an Army brat - very very uncomfortable.
RE: What will it take? - Lilith7 - 18-02-2022
(18-02-2022, 01:07 PM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: I have a problem with the Army being called in. A nation's military should never ever be used against its own citizens. Never.Yep me too - that's the kind of thing you expect from some overseas countries rather than here.
Backing up the Police might be a good reason, but it still would make me - an Army brat - very very uncomfortable.
RE: What will it take? - Magoo - 18-02-2022
Nope not me. Send in the army. There are crimes being committed against the citizenry. The police are refusing to uphold the law. Declare a SOE and send them in. They're on the payroll.
RE: What will it take? - ObeWan - 18-02-2022
I am a bit of a fence sitter about the military being used.
Possibly because my youngest son is a corporal in the Air Force currently.
I take the point about the military being deployed against its own citizens, but I also somewhat agree with Maggo in that the Police seem utterly powerless, although I place the blame for that on the woke Commissioner and not the force itself.
For me the time has long past dealing with this with the current “wait and see” approach.
If I am stopped by the Police in the future my approach to that might be: “you will let me off this eh?, because you let people break the law in Wellington, Picton, Christchurch . . .etc”