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Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - Printable Version +- Too Many Message Boards (https://tmmb.co.nz/forums) +-- Forum: General Topics (https://tmmb.co.nz/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=5) +--- Forum: Opinion and Politics (https://tmmb.co.nz/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=75) +--- Thread: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. (/showthread.php?tid=3388) |
Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - C_T_Russell - 15-09-2024 Because all those climate saving electric cars will need mined minerals to build them. The green party should be in full support. RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - Oh_hunnihunni - 15-09-2024 Mmmm, except we don't have a lot of rare earth minerals. And it is pretty obvious now it is too late to stop the tsunami that is climate change. We had our chances, now our Neros can just keep right on fiddling... After all, the Titanic had its orchestra. RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - zqwerty - 15-09-2024 "After all, the Titanic had its orchestra." Yes well said, They didn't have clowns though, and we've got plenty of them amongst and surrounding us. RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - harm_less - 15-09-2024 Great example of the use of 'patsy questions' to allow a fellow MP to promote their pet policies. Shane Jones has very little appreciation of international opinion in regards to fossil fuel use and extractive industries. If he thinks that exploration and consumption of hydrogen is ever going to be a viable strategy he's more deluded than his party leader. Jones is full of bluster about restructuring the electricity sector to save the timber mills that have closed this week but has been conspicuous by his silence when the hammer finally came down on 230 jobs there. So far as CT's comment regarding EVs is concerned he seems to be wholly ignorant of both the comparative mineral requirements for EVs vs ICEVs, and the lifetime advantage EVs enjoy over ICEVs in terms of their emissions and environmental impact. Also the changing mineral makeup of EVs' batteries and associated energy storage infrastructure. For a quick and easily understood lesson on the pros and cons of EVs and fossil fueled vehicles this may help: RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - Oh_hunnihunni - 15-09-2024 The excuse of 'providing energy security' is being used worldwide. And it is an excuse. An excuse not to disturb our comfortable lives. Never mind the lives we are leaving to our grandchildren. RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - Lilith7 - 15-09-2024 (15-09-2024, 04:38 PM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: The excuse of 'providing energy security' is being used worldwide. And it is an excuse. An excuse not to disturb our comfortable lives. Never mind the lives we are leaving to our grandchildren. Full speed ahead - & damn the torpedos..& grandchildren. ![]() Really not sure how they manage to sleep at night. RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - harm_less - 15-09-2024 (15-09-2024, 04:59 PM)Lilith7 Wrote: Really not sure how they manage to sleep at night.When you're totally blinkered from the reality of the situation by your dominating ideologies your actions can be construed as being done in good faith. RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - Lilith7 - 15-09-2024 (15-09-2024, 05:50 PM)harm_less Wrote:(15-09-2024, 04:59 PM)Lilith7 Wrote: Really not sure how they manage to sleep at night.When you're totally blinkered from the reality of the situation by your dominating ideologies your actions can be construed as being done in good faith. In a similar vein but on a far smaller scale (for the moment anyway) to the attack on the twin towers, then..'We're doing the right thing'.... We're a very strange speciies.. RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - C_T_Russell - 16-09-2024 (15-09-2024, 12:46 PM)harm_less Wrote: Great example of the use of 'patsy questions' to allow a fellow MP to promote their pet policies. Shane Jones has very little appreciation of international opinion in regards to fossil fuel use and extractive industries. If he thinks that exploration and consumption of hydrogen is ever going to be a viable strategy he's more deluded than his party leader. Jones is full of bluster about restructuring the electricity sector to save the timber mills that have closed this week but has been conspicuous by his silence when the hammer finally came down on 230 jobs there.I'm sure you are correct about the longer lifetime that EVs can experience, but pretty much every consumer product, including electric cars needs mined minerals. In fact, EVs probably contain alot more gold inside due to the amount of electronics they would hold. As far as drilling for hydrogen, that seems pipe dream, but I'm pretty pissed off about the mills closing and the blame 100% lies with labour and the greens shutting down oil exploration, while at the same time providing zero alternative solutions to supplement our energy sector to make up for the losses from gas. Now we are running out and might be having to rely on LNG imports. Way to go labour, you were supposed to be all about he working class. What's more, as more mills close, our timber gets send overseas to be processed and shipped back, and guess what, more fuel producing co2 to ship it here. Brainless, these people who were in charge are idiots. We need to start oil and gas exploration ASAP so we can get our energy costs down for business to stay operational. RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - king1 - 16-09-2024 (16-09-2024, 12:20 AM)C_T_Russell Wrote:(15-09-2024, 12:46 PM)harm_less Wrote: Great example of the use of 'patsy questions' to allow a fellow MP to promote their pet policies. Shane Jones has very little appreciation of international opinion in regards to fossil fuel use and extractive industries. If he thinks that exploration and consumption of hydrogen is ever going to be a viable strategy he's more deluded than his party leader. Jones is full of bluster about restructuring the electricity sector to save the timber mills that have closed this week but has been conspicuous by his silence when the hammer finally came down on 230 jobs there.I'm sure you are correct about the longer lifetime that EVs can experience, but pretty much every consumer product, including electric cars needs mined minerals. In fact, EVs probably contain alot more gold inside due to the amount of electronics they would hold. i'm sure blaming labour and greens for this fits nicely with your mind-set, but the fact remains that climate change is real, it is not going away, countries around the world are all moving to reduce dependence on fossil fuels, and Labour did have a plan to mitigate the problem with 'dry years' and it's effects on business (Lake Onslow), which National promptly killed for silly ideological reasons - Labour weren't the idiots... But from another point of view, have you also considered that oil and gas is FINITE and the world WILL need another source of energy in the not to distant future, by estimates I read online approx 50 years or so of reserves... Given that it will take several years or decades to ramp up whatever alternative the world decides to use, it certainly makes sense to start now... RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - harm_less - 16-09-2024 (16-09-2024, 12:20 AM)C_T_Russell Wrote: I'm sure you are correct about the longer lifetime that EVs can experience, but pretty much every consumer product, including electric cars needs mined minerals. In fact, EVs probably contain alot more gold inside due to the amount of electronics they would hold.You misunderstand my comment on lifetime advantages of EVs. What I was referring to was the total lifetime emissions of EVs vs ICEVs. In NZ's case where >80% of our grid generation is from renewables the point where manufacturing emissions are balanced off by absence of fossil fuel combustion an EV typically reaches net zero at around 20,000km, and from then on the emissions are near zero, in contrast to ICEVs which continue to generate emissions for their entire lifetime and these increase as the vehicle's engine ages. Your understanding of NZ's electricity generation infrastructure and the pricing mechanism for consumers is sadly lacking. If you want to lay blame at the foot of a government then it sits squarely on the National governments 'Bradford reforms' of 1998, futher complicated by the partial privatisation of the major gentailers by the Key government. This misguided cluster of policies created the present situation where wholesale electricity prices are set every 30 minutes at the cost of the most expensive generation method required to satisfy demand during that period. So, at times of peak demand when the generators need to bring on stream their thermal (gas or coal) facilities, which cost significantly more to run than releasing water from a dam does, the wholesale price for ALL electricity supplied at that point receives that price, which of course is a windfall for those running hydro facilities. So what you're suggesting is that the system is currently charging their wholesale electricity customers huge prices because of a shortage of the fuel to support high priced thermal generation. Your solution is to promote the most expensive form of generation so that will somehow bring wholesale electricity prices down. Don't feel too stupid about not realising your mistake as Simeon Brown is promoting exactly that strategy to address the current crisis, but in his case it's to support his oil and gas industry lobbyists. In his case he's even suggesting importing even more expensive feedstock for thermal generation which not only exposes us to rising international prices for LNG but also literally burns NZ's overseas funds to do so. Fortunately the LNG scenario is very unlikely to eventuate as our government expect the cost of developing an LNG terminal to be paid for by the gentailers and from what I'm hearing from within the NZ gas industry the gentailers don't want a bar of this hair-brained scheme. It is also worth noting that we are hearing of all manner of futuristic solutions for our agricultural methane emissions from this government but in the next breath they're proposing we import shiploads of methane in the form of LNG. Coalition of clowns? The previous Labour government had a renewable based strategy in planning to address a 'dry year' situation such as we are currently seeing in the form of a huge pumped hydro scheme with Lake Onslow. The economics of Onslow are questionable but the strategy of using increased hydro capacity is sound especially when used in conjunction with intermittent generation methods such as solar and wind. Hydro is in effect a huge storage medium or 'battery' which can be used in that capacity to carry that intermittent generation capacity forward to cover periods when solar and/or wind isn't producing. It is interesting to see the crisis now easing to due not only to recent rain inflows to the hydro lakes but also increased wind generation taking the consumption impact off of the grid, so in effect the grid is being used to good effect with hydro storage being utilised to its best effect. It is also worth noting that where most countries struggle to coordinate intermittent renewable generation with baseload demands NZ is uniquely positioned to do so by virtue of our huge existing capacity of hydro generation assets. Simeon Brown continues to beat his fossil fuel shortage drum and in the meantime domestic solar installations are increasing by the week. Many consumers are now seeing the writing on the wall in terms of where electricity supply prices are headed (as high wholesale prices will impact retail prices) and are voting with their wallets as the economics of rooftop solar gets better and better as these electricity price increases loom, and solar panels reduce in price. RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - C_T_Russell - 17-10-2024 (16-09-2024, 11:04 AM)harm_less Wrote:(16-09-2024, 12:20 AM)C_T_Russell Wrote: I'm sure you are correct about the longer lifetime that EVs can experience, but pretty much every consumer product, including electric cars needs mined minerals. In fact, EVs probably contain alot more gold inside due to the amount of electronics they would hold.You misunderstand my comment on lifetime advantages of EVs. What I was referring to was the total lifetime emissions of EVs vs ICEVs. In NZ's case where >80% of our grid generation is from renewables the point where manufacturing emissions are balanced off by absence of fossil fuel combustion an EV typically reaches net zero at around 20,000km, and from then on the emissions are near zero, in contrast to ICEVs which continue to generate emissions for their entire lifetime and these increase as the vehicle's engine ages. The biggest issue was stopping oil exploration while NZ is still heavily dependent on gas for industry. Until renewable electricity generation is increased, we still need to rely on oil and gas. And yes, selling off the shares in mighty river power was a mistake but technically the government still holds 51% so don't they still have most of the influence on prices? RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - Oh_hunnihunni - 17-10-2024 Nice little bit of science showed up on my screen recently. Dark oxygen, they're calling it. You know those nodules of rare earth minerals and metals the deep sea miners have their eyes on? Well, it seems they lie in groups on the sea floor for a reason. By a process of electrolysis they interact with each other and the salts that surround them to produce this dark oxygen as a primary source. They produce the first components of the air we breathe. And so, of course we are going to bulid machines to harvest them, to haul them up, to process them, to make our smart phones and our computers, to provide homes for the new masters of the planet. Who cares if the oxygen supply diminishes. Artificial intelligence doesn't need to breathe. RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - harm_less - 17-10-2024 (17-10-2024, 07:16 AM)C_T_Russell Wrote: The biggest issue was stopping oil exploration while NZ is still heavily dependent on gas for industry.Oil exploration in NZ was only limping along when the Labour government brought in the ban on 'new offshore exploration'. There was and still has been drilling on existing prospects ongoing both onshore and off our coast but there has been no significant hydrocarbon finds to date, and the likelihood of new discoveries is unlikely in the foreseeable future. The reasons for this are a combination of the fact that virtually all potential geological structures have already been penetrated and/or depleted with Taranaki geology typically having small fractured hydrocarbon reservoirs that commonly are 'dry' or of low extractive potential. In light of this exploratory drilling is considered high risk and expensive due to our geographical isolation so international oil companies consider NZ as being of low potential of return on investment. There is good reason for NZ having not made any significant oil or gas finds in the last decade or more and the exploration ban all in all made little effect on the situation. It has recently been stated that any oil or gas that was discovered in NZ would take a decade or more before it would contribute to supply, and by then the world will most likely have turned its back on hydrocarbon use as the realities of climate degradation hit home. It makes far more sense to develop renewables such as wind turbines and solar of both domestic and utility scale. The returns for capex on solar and wind is substantially greater than for hydrocarbon power generation and can be brought onstream in a matter of years. The biggest restriction to widespread development of renewable generation is the inertia created by our big generators as they structure their business and infrastructure model to best capitalise on an electricity pricing model that benefits them if supply is restricted. There is a huge amount of both solar and wind generation consented so it's now a waiting game as design and construction occur on these projects. That generation is a surety and the electricity generated is massively cheaper than from any other method. So far as ownership of the big generators (gentailers) is concerned the existing wholesale pricing model applies no matter who is at the helm so majority government ownership just makes them complicit in the sluggish generation investment that is a large reason for the shortfalls we're now experiencing. Blaming the oil exploration ban for the situation is just another case of our current government (wrongfully) passing the buck onto the past administration as they are so prone to doing, and in the case of their support of seabed mining in the South Taranaki Bight they are also pushing the likelihood of offshore wind development in that area off for at least 30 years as well as sending a negative indication to any other potential offshore wind development in our waters. RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - Lilith7 - 17-10-2024 (17-10-2024, 07:23 AM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: Nice little bit of science showed up on my screen recently. Dark oxygen, they're calling it. You know those nodules of rare earth minerals and metals the deep sea miners have their eyes on? Well, it seems they lie in groups on the sea floor for a reason. By a process of electrolysis they interact with each other and the salts that surround them to produce this dark oxygen as a primary source. They produce the first components of the air we breathe. Oy vey.... ![]() ![]() You have to wonder if the reason no other intelligent forms of life have so far been discovered by humans is that they all went down the very same path our species is rushing down now... RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - jilledge - 17-10-2024 (15-09-2024, 06:48 PM)Lilith7 Wrote:(15-09-2024, 05:50 PM)harm_less Wrote: When you're totally blinkered from the reality of the situation by your dominating ideologies your actions can be construed as being done in good faith. It's 'species', there's only one "i" RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - Oh_hunnihunni - 17-10-2024 (17-10-2024, 11:37 AM)jilledge Wrote:Hey! Nice to see you!(15-09-2024, 06:48 PM)Lilith7 Wrote: In a similar vein but on a far smaller scale (for the moment anyway) to the attack on the twin towers, then..'We're doing the right thing'.... And - it was a typo... ![]() RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - king1 - 17-10-2024 (17-10-2024, 12:07 PM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote:(17-10-2024, 11:37 AM)jilledge Wrote: It's 'species', there's only one "i"Hey! Nice to see you! are you guys trying to tip somoene over the grammatical edge... RE: Shane Jones will begin a mining resurgence. - Lilith7 - 17-10-2024 (17-10-2024, 12:49 PM)king1 Wrote:(17-10-2024, 12:07 PM)Oh_hunnihunni Wrote: Hey! Nice to see you! Oh,surely not. Would we....?? ![]() ![]() |