No farms - no food! Farmers protest in the Netherlands

[C_T_Russell]

Look what these bloody left wing greenie nutjobs are doing in Europe.
No wonder we are seeing higher food costs, $20 for a block of cheese is going to look cheap soon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lleLDOO-Jk

[harm_less]

The ranting anti-science presenter really hasn't got any understanding of what he's criticising. Those protesting farmers have been made totally reliant on fossil fuel based fertiliser inputs but are oblivious to the environment that they are at the mercy of to grow their crops. I imagine they will be lining up for government handouts when extreme climatic events threaten their livelihoods but they are all too happy to keep abusing the environment with their fuel and fertiliser use. Take a look at the heat wave currently scorching Europe to see just one such example of how our environment is now showing them the errors in what they have expected it to absorb.

You really do watch some shit propaganda content!

[C_T_Russell]

The ranting anti-science presenter really hasn't got any understanding of what he's criticising. Those protesting farmers have been made totally reliant on fossil fuel based fertiliser inputs but are oblivious to the environment that they are at the mercy of to grow their crops. I imagine they will be lining up for government handouts when extreme climatic events threaten their livelihoods but they are all too happy to keep abusing the environment with their fuel and fertiliser use. Take a look at the heat wave currently scorching Europe to see just one such example of how our environment is now showing them the errors in what they have expected it to absorb.

You really do watch some shit propaganda content!

I didnt even think much of the content had much to do with greenhouse gases at all, it was more to do with nitrate use on farms.
Presumably all this is over fertilizer use, not to do with greenhouse emissions at all, although that is still a huge issue for farmers and is a separate thing altogether.

Why blame farmers on climate change anyway? Its the bloody cars that are the issue, not farts from cows!

[harm_less]

The ranting anti-science presenter really hasn't got any understanding of what he's criticising. Those protesting farmers have been made totally reliant on fossil fuel based fertiliser inputs but are oblivious to the environment that they are at the mercy of to grow their crops. I imagine they will be lining up for government handouts when extreme climatic events threaten their livelihoods but they are all too happy to keep abusing the environment with their fuel and fertiliser use. Take a look at the heat wave currently scorching Europe to see just one such example of how our environment is now showing them the errors in what they have expected it to absorb.

You really do watch some shit propaganda content!

I didnt even think much of the content had much to do with greenhouse gases at all, it was more to do with nitrate use on farms.
Presumably all this is over fertilizer use, not to do with greenhouse emissions at all, although that is still a huge issue for farmers and is a separate thing altogether.

Why blame farmers on climate change anyway? Its the bloody cars that are the issue, not farts from cows!

That sort of ignorance is what comes from listening to that sort of online propaganda.

The nitrogen fertiliser that the protests relate to are manufactured from hydrocarbon inputs. Its manufacture has a large impact on atmospheric CO2 and its use degrades soil organic matter which also emits CO2. And then the farmers take their diesel tractors on a nationwide road protest to complain about environmental constraints being served on them. Surely even you can see the hypocracy in that action

Holland also has some of the highest groundwater nitrate levels in Europe so it isn't only the atmosphere they're degrading with rampant N fertiliser use.

[king1]

only people who desperately need to validate what they are espousing need to put up a notice like "real news, honest views".

I presume Rebel News is a CT propaganda machine

[C_T_Russell]

I didnt even think much of the content had much to do with greenhouse gases at all, it was more to do with nitrate use on farms.
Presumably all this is over fertilizer use, not to do with greenhouse emissions at all, although that is still a huge issue for farmers and is a separate thing altogether.

Why blame farmers on climate change anyway? Its the bloody cars that are the issue, not farts from cows!

That sort of ignorance is what comes from listening to that sort of online propaganda.

The nitrogen fertiliser that the protests relate to are manufactured from hydrocarbon inputs. Its manufacture has a large impact on atmospheric CO2 and its use degrades soil organic matter which also emits CO2. And then the farmers take their diesel tractors on a nationwide road protest to complain about environmental constraints being served on them. Surely even you can see the hypocracy in that action

Holland also has some of the highest groundwater nitrate levels in Europe so it isn't only the atmosphere they're degrading with rampant N fertiliser use.

Ive only heard the negative effects on nitrates is due to runoff into streams, I agree thats a major issue.
Even if it causes co2 to be released from soil, its still from a carbon neutral source as organic matter.
Not that I think that these farming practices are ideal, but what alternatives are there?
Organic food costs stupid money, but thats our only alternative unless they can make organic fertilizers cheaper or something.

You would have to agree that any alternatives need to be cheaper rather than imposing strict controls on farmers that end up costing the consumer in the supermarket.

[harm_less]

That sort of ignorance is what comes from listening to that sort of online propaganda.

The nitrogen fertiliser that the protests relate to are manufactured from hydrocarbon inputs. Its manufacture has a large impact on atmospheric CO2 and its use degrades soil organic matter which also emits CO2. And then the farmers take their diesel tractors on a nationwide road protest to complain about environmental constraints being served on them. Surely even you can see the hypocracy in that action

Holland also has some of the highest groundwater nitrate levels in Europe so it isn't only the atmosphere they're degrading with rampant N fertiliser use.

Ive only heard the negative effects on nitrates is due to runoff into streams, I agree thats a major issue.
Even if it causes co2 to be released from soil, its still from a carbon neutral source as organic matter.
Not that I think that these farming practices are ideal, but what alternatives are there?
Organic food costs stupid money, but thats our only alternative unless they can make organic fertilizers cheaper or something.

You would have to agree that any alternatives need to be cheaper rather than imposing strict controls on farmers that end up costing the consumer in the supermarket.

Soil science is a very complex subject. Having studied as part of a Dip Hort it was intriguing.

In Organic/environmental aware circles urea (nitrogen) fertiliser is referred to as 'rich father, poor son' fertiliser. It works in part by supplying N in a water soluble (therefore easily leached) form for plants but also stimulates the bacteria that break down organic matter, which is the main component of topsoil. Those are the same organisms that break down the garden wastes in your compost and that is why a compost heap requires nitrogen rich inputs in order to decompose effectively.

In soil that organic matter (soil carbon) is a crucial part of the soil's ability to produce its own nitrogen so as excess nitrogen fertiliser is added that carbon reservoir depletes and so more nitrogen fertiliser must be used to gain the same growth boost. If that sounds like an increasing addiction you're understanding what the ongoing result is on farms that rely on N fertilisers to maintain their production. That addiction is what the 'poor son' will be left with after his father has got 'rich' from mining the soil organic matter.

The alternatives we are now seeing are Organics, which are expensive as much because of the costs of maintaing a robust and uncorruptible audit trail, as the reduced production rates on land that has to carry its own weight fertility wise. Also the price comparison between Organic and conventional production costs is disguised due to the full costs of conventional farming not being factored into the equation in most cases. If the costs of environmental degradation, health issues (i.e. nitrate poisoning of water supplies, respiratory/cardiac issues from atmospheric emissions, elevated cancer rates from pesticide residues or spray drift, etc) were taken into account, as the Dutch government and many others are now attempting to do, then the cost to consumers of their produce will start to reflect the true cost of food production. If you think the squawks coming from our farmers when inclusion in the ETA is suggested you ain't seen nothing yet, as your Sky.AU video shows.

The other food production system that is gaining traction in terms of responsible environmental activity is Regenerative Agriculture. That's still an emerging platform that is finding its way in the food production arena but the basis looks promising. You seem to have plenty of time to find information on the internet so maybe google this and educate yourself on the source and impact your food supply has.

[Olive]

"The alternatives we are now seeing are Organics, which are expensive as much because of the costs of maintaing a robust and uncorruptible audit trail, as the reduced production rates on land that has to carry its own weight fertility wise. Also the price comparison between Organic and conventional production costs is disguised due to the full costs of conventional farming not being factored into the equation in most cases. If the costs of environmental degradation, health issues (i.e. nitrate poisoning of water supplies, respiratory/cardiac issues from atmospheric emissions, elevated cancer rates from pesticide residues or spray drift, etc) were taken into account, as the Dutch government and many others are now attempting to do, then the cost to consumers of their produce will start to reflect the true cost of food production."

Two very good points, usually overlooked or ignored. Thank you for expressing these so clearly.

[Lilith7]

Oh dear jaysus - 'the great reset' bollocks yet again. "The climate cult" for pity's sake! The sooner nonsense like this is revealed for the absolute tripe that it is, the better.

And who knows, it may be that those 'left wing greenie nut jobs' are in part responsible for helping to save the planet one of these days. Or not, of course with CTers spreading this sort of stuff.
I'd never heard the term so went looking & found this - only to find that I have heard of it just not the name for it.
Regenerative farming
https://www.greenpeace.org/aotearoa/stor...riculture/

[Praktica]

Nurse! Deprogrammer needed for OP in this thread, stat!

[C_T_Russell]

Ive only heard the negative effects on nitrates is due to runoff into streams, I agree thats a major issue.
Even if it causes co2 to be released from soil, its still from a carbon neutral source as organic matter.
Not that I think that these farming practices are ideal, but what alternatives are there?
Organic food costs stupid money, but thats our only alternative unless they can make organic fertilizers cheaper or something.

You would have to agree that any alternatives need to be cheaper rather than imposing strict controls on farmers that end up costing the consumer in the supermarket.

Soil science is a very complex subject. Having studied as part of a Dip Hort it was intriguing.

In Organic/environmental aware circles urea (nitrogen) fertiliser is referred to as 'rich father, poor son' fertiliser. It works in part by supplying N in a water soluble (therefore easily leached) form for plants but also stimulates the bacteria that break down organic matter, which is the main component of topsoil. Those are the same organisms that break down the garden wastes in your compost and that is why a compost heap requires nitrogen rich inputs in order to decompose effectively.

In soil that organic matter (soil carbon) is a crucial part of the soil's ability to produce its own nitrogen so as excess nitrogen fertiliser is added that carbon reservoir depletes and so more nitrogen fertiliser must be used to gain the same growth boost. If that sounds like an increasing addiction you're understanding what the ongoing result is on farms that rely on N fertilisers to maintain their production. That addiction is what the 'poor son' will be left with after his father has got 'rich' from mining the soil organic matter.

The alternatives we are now seeing are Organics, which are expensive as much because of the costs of maintaing a robust and uncorruptible audit trail, as the reduced production rates on land that has to carry its own weight fertility wise. Also the price comparison between Organic and conventional production costs is disguised due to the full costs of conventional farming not being factored into the equation in most cases. If the costs of environmental degradation, health issues (i.e. nitrate poisoning of water supplies, respiratory/cardiac issues from atmospheric emissions, elevated cancer rates from pesticide residues or spray drift, etc) were taken into account, as the Dutch government and many others are now attempting to do, then the cost to consumers of their produce will start to reflect the true cost of food production. If you think the squawks coming from our farmers when inclusion in the ETA is suggested you ain't seen nothing yet, as your Sky.AU video shows.

The other food production system that is gaining traction in terms of responsible environmental activity is Regenerative Agriculture. That's still an emerging platform that is finding its way in the food production arena but the basis looks promising. You seem to have plenty of time to find information on the internet so maybe google this and educate yourself on the source and impact your food supply has.

There is definitely quite a lot to it, but if governments want to tackle this seriously, they need to at least fund the transition for farmers and invest more in research.
I doubt we would see farmers complaining if they were provided the assistance to do so.

Ive spent lots of time in the garden and its not easy, I dont use much in the way of synthetic fertilizers at all, mostly seaweed liquid foods and sheep pellets etc, yet nothing really wants to grow that well.

I know adding mulch is supposed to help, but at the same time it sucks nitrogen out of the soil as it breaks down.
Yet some people say they find sawdust is brilliant, yet that stuff is supposed to be the worst thing for removing nitrogen out of the soil.

Oh and by the way, it turns out that half the problems facing Sri Lanka's economy right now and the mess they are now in is a result of their extreme "green" moves to reduce nitrates.
All their tea crops had gone "organic" and have largely failed. No wonder things are bad.
Perhaps if they had experts helping them it may have turned out differently?
We west could face the same if we are not careful...

[harm_less]

Soil science is a very complex subject. Having studied as part of a Dip Hort it was intriguing.

In Organic/environmental aware circles urea (nitrogen) fertiliser is referred to as 'rich father, poor son' fertiliser. It works in part by supplying N in a water soluble (therefore easily leached) form for plants but also stimulates the bacteria that break down organic matter, which is the main component of topsoil. Those are the same organisms that break down the garden wastes in your compost and that is why a compost heap requires nitrogen rich inputs in order to decompose effectively.

In soil that organic matter (soil carbon) is a crucial part of the soil's ability to produce its own nitrogen so as excess nitrogen fertiliser is added that carbon reservoir depletes and so more nitrogen fertiliser must be used to gain the same growth boost. If that sounds like an increasing addiction you're understanding what the ongoing result is on farms that rely on N fertilisers to maintain their production. That addiction is what the 'poor son' will be left with after his father has got 'rich' from mining the soil organic matter.

The alternatives we are now seeing are Organics, which are expensive as much because of the costs of maintaing a robust and uncorruptible audit trail, as the reduced production rates on land that has to carry its own weight fertility wise. Also the price comparison between Organic and conventional production costs is disguised due to the full costs of conventional farming not being factored into the equation in most cases. If the costs of environmental degradation, health issues (i.e. nitrate poisoning of water supplies, respiratory/cardiac issues from atmospheric emissions, elevated cancer rates from pesticide residues or spray drift, etc) were taken into account, as the Dutch government and many others are now attempting to do, then the cost to consumers of their produce will start to reflect the true cost of food production. If you think the squawks coming from our farmers when inclusion in the ETA is suggested you ain't seen nothing yet, as your Sky.AU video shows.

The other food production system that is gaining traction in terms of responsible environmental activity is Regenerative Agriculture. That's still an emerging platform that is finding its way in the food production arena but the basis looks promising. You seem to have plenty of time to find information on the internet so maybe google this and educate yourself on the source and impact your food supply has.

There is definitely quite a lot to it, but if governments want to tackle this seriously, they need to at least fund the transition for farmers and invest more in research.
I doubt we would see farmers complaining if they were provided the assistance to do so.

Ive spent lots of time in the garden and its not easy, I dont use much in the way of synthetic fertilizers at all, mostly seaweed liquid foods and sheep pellets etc, yet nothing really wants to grow that well.

I know adding mulch is supposed to help, but at the same time it sucks nitrogen out of the soil as it breaks down.
Yet some people say they find sawdust is brilliant, yet that stuff is supposed to be the worst thing for removing nitrogen out of the soil.

Oh and by the way, it turns out that half the problems facing Sri Lanka's economy right now and the mess they are now in is a result of their extreme "green" moves to reduce nitrates.
All their tea crops had gone "organic" and have largely failed. No wonder things are bad.
Perhaps if they had experts helping them it may have turned out differently?
We west could face the same if we are not careful...

If the mulch you're adding is rich in carbon such as wood based mulch then the bacteria and fungi that are required to decompose that carbon need nitrogen as 'fuel' so if you don't include extra nitrogen such as blood & bone, powdered blood or manure in the application the mulch will rob that nitrogen from your soil. Sawdust is the worst in this respect as it has massive surface area per volume do will attempt to decompose the fastest.

Most of NZ's farmers are advised by fertiliser companies in regard to their soil nutrition so of course they will default to soluble fertilisers as their rep' tells them to. Also the banks who own a large percentage of their property will stipulate what fertiliser applications they need to undertake, also as advised by fertiliser companies. The average farmer is taking a huge leap of faith when embarking down the Organic road with very little support from our government. It is frustrating that the NZ government has in past years funded organic strategies for our Pacific island neighbours but the same doesn't happen in our own country to the same degree. I've been out of the Organics industry for a few years now but I suspect the situation remains similar now.

Also any farmer that is brave enough to venture outside the conventional approach to farming often becomes the target of ridicule and abuse. The recent Country Calendar program showing the Rosses unconventional method on their sheep farm was the most commented on (mostly negative) episode of the show ever. This to me indicates how little farmers know about market perceptions in the modern trading environment, though I suppose this shouldn't come as too much of a surprise considering a large portion of our farmers are essentially lackies for a multinational dairy company who tell them how to farm and then sell most of the milk they source as minimally value added milk powder.