Problem - Thunderbird Gmail Norton

[SueDonim]

For a while when sending Gmail emails via Thunderbird on a desktop (Windows 10) I've been getting messages about security exceptions relating to smtp.gmail.com:465. The grey box says the certificate isn't verified but I confirm the security exception and tick the box to store the exception permanently. The send usually then fails the first time, but when I click Send again it goes and is delivered. This has been going on for a while but is little bother and I figured whatever isn't right will catch up with itself eventually in updates.

Then - after a Thunderbird update a couple of days ago I couldn't get it to download Gmail emails at all. It was getting stuck at "connected to imap.....".

This morning I've spent a couple of hours trying to figure out what's going on. I have done a number of Google searches and picked up various sites with info on how things should be set up without finding anything wrong. Eventually I found that if I go into the Norton antivirus settings and turn off "scan inbound emails POP3 IMAP4" the "connected to imap....." problem goes away. Emails are now downloading for both Gmail accounts without any problem.

My question now is how much risk I have opened up by switching off that scan of incoming emails. We keep email set to display simple html and are pretty savvy about not clicking anything that might be dodgy. Is it safe to leave as is?

The security exception message when sending email is still happening though and I can't see any way to fix it. Is it something to worry about or just put up with until the certificate update is eventually done by Google (assuming that that is what is needed)?

[king1]

well it is probably no less secure than allowing the security certificate override you have been doing in the past.

The reason this happens is because Norton (and some other AVs) fail to correctly apply their own security certificate which they need to do to be able to analyse the secure email traffic. If you dive into the view certificate area when that SSL error shows up, you will see that it is the Norton/Symantec certificate that is the problem and not the google/gmail one.

Usually the easiest solution is to uninstall Norton - restart the pc, check that gmail works correction with SSL enabled (it will) - then if you're a sucker for punishment, reinstall Norton and it should correctly add certificates wherever they need to go...

[SueDonim]

Thank you for a quick reply. I figured over-riding the security for outgoing wasn't likely to be a problem. I guess on that score I hadn't allowed for if it really did save the setting.

I'll try the Norton uninstall and see how it goes. I gather you don't like it. Should I just go for something else instead of reinstalling it?

[king1]

Overriding the security is not ideal, the AV should be able to scan emails securely, otherwise it won't be able to identify bad emails and attachments etc

an updated Windows 10/11 has Windows Defender built in which is good enough these days... Otherwise Eset for a paid one...

[SueDonim]

I reinstalled Norton. I've left the scanning for email attachments turned on but the certificate problem is still there. I've let it through again but this time didn't tick the "permanent" box and clearly need to do something better. I'll look at reviews etc and consider Eset. I've just run a free Malwarebytes scan which was clear. I'm not sure that I would trust Defender enough on its own. I keep Windows as updated as it will but this computer is getting a bit old now (?2017) and I sometimes get messages about compatibility, although they are mainly telling me that it can't do Windows 11.

Thanks very much for your help.

[king1]

did the email go OK without Norton installed? Ultimately that is the test, to confirm that it is something to do with Norton.

Many many people do use just defender for AV now, but it needs to be one of the later versions of windows 10/11 ie 22H2, 23H2

[SueDonim]

When I start Thunderbird after a reboot it gets stuck on "connected to imap...". When I click to download messages manually I get the security exception message again - with number 993 instead of 465. I confirm that and nothing happens, but when I click to force the download again then the emails come through. Same with sending emails. Clear the exception the first time, then click "Send" again to make it work.

So it sort of looks like Norton had something to do with it in that fiddling with the settings and reinstalling seems to have made a slight change. But not really. So maybe it is something else after all.

[king1]

check your date and time are correct, that could affect things as well...

But every time I have struck this problem it is inevitably Norton or some other AV causing the issue. IDK maybe you need to use the Norton Removal tool to get it out completely
https://support.norton.com/sp/en/us/home.../v60392881

The important thing is to make sure Norton is out of the picture and continue troubleshooting from there ie keep peeling back the layers so to speak...

[harm_less]

I run Firefox, and Thunderbird for both my email accounts which includes Gmail. My antivirus and internet security is by ESET and I've never experienced anything like the issues SueDonim seems to be having. Based on my use of ESET AV for over 20 years (from memory) it is my recommendation to anyone requiring extremely effective internet protection with the minimum of bloatware.

[SueDonim]

I also have Firefox. I downloaded Brave when I needed it to access Lotto but haven't used it for anything else yet.

Yesterday when I reinstalled Norton and rebooted I had to open up the security exception but didn't click the box to make it permanent. Today I have had no problem. So maybe the reinstallation did sort it out. My Norton subscription renews in September so this is a good time to look at alternatives and decide what I plan to do for future antivirus.

I checked my Windows version and it's 22H2. Maybe it is good enough for what we need. We don't knowingly go to dodgy websites but also do do banking so it's imperative that nothing bad gets through. I'll look into that a bit further too.

Thanks very much to both of you for your input.

[nzoomed]

I second getting rid of Norton.

[Wainuitech]

Would Defiantly get rid Of Norton.  Some of the removal tools still don't get everything out.

How I remove ANY AV.  Run Revo uninstaller in Advanced mode, when the AV wants to reboot to carry on removal, bring up task manager and kill the AV Process/request, then let Revo scan for folders and reg keys ,remove any it finds. THEN reboot.

Next Run https://antivirus-removal-tool.com/    (Download Links down page Orange Button) Let it scan, in the Search Window, any entries right click and go to location, manually delete the left behind folders.

Some installed Antivirus will pop up saying the program is a PUP-- Its NOT, its a removal tool that Antivirus software hates

[SueDonim]

Since the last posts on this my computer did a major Windows update and everything seems to have come right. I'm still planning to review whether or not to keep Norton (probably won't) and am about to start looking at what to move to.

You all seem to be critical of Norton and recommending ESET. What are the pros and cons of each please? Thanks.


Added: I don't need password management or online storage. Not sure about VPN.

[king1]

Since the last posts on this my computer did a major Windows update and everything seems to have come right. I'm still planning to review whether or not to keep Norton (probably won't) and am about to start looking at what to move to.

You all seem to be critical of Norton and recommending ESET. What are the pros and cons of each please? Thanks.


Added: I don't need password management or online storage. Not sure about VPN.

Norton is a handbrake, Eset is nice and light...
Quite honestly if you uninstall Norton you will think someone swapped out your PC for a new one while you weren't looking...

Eset is also very reasonably priced if you just want the basics at $49.98/yr for a single license, and discounts for more.  Norton/Mcafee etc  will often be cheap the first year but hit you hard in subsequent renewals.

[nzoomed]

ESET all the way here but if you are cheapskate, just stick with the built in windows security, its pretty good these days to be honest.

[SueDonim]

The original problem at the beginning of this thread started after a Thunderbird update and resolved when a Windows update came through. So although I was open to suspecting Norton being the problem, I have no real evidence that it was.

Being annoyed with Norton for other reasons I looked into what I need since the Norton renewal was due this week. I've spent many hours looking at reviews, labtest results and customer feedback. I shortlisted Norton, Bitdefender, ESET and TotalAV which ended up in that order in my final decision - ie I stayed with Norton.

Norton has a lot of critics for their customer service (and I agree with that criticism) but at the end of the day seems to be the best product for the task. Overall, when comparing Norton and ESET it appears that Norton has better malware protection and web security. ESET has better diagnostics tools. Advanced users who do their own troubleshooting are recommended to go with ESET. ESET goes deeper into the computer to look for malware but Norton is better at stopping it at the gate.

I will also continue to run free Malwarebytes over the system from time to time. Having this combination of Norton for ongoing AV and using Malwarebytes in this way as a double check has worked well for 5 years and to my knowledge nothing has got through on the computer. So at the end of the day, why fix something that isn't broken when making changes mean setting up and learning something new that may not be as effective? Assuming that the recent problem was both caused and resolved by the timing of other product updates.

It was also interesting to look into the companies that provide the products. Norton's parent company is a very large Fortune 500 company that also owns Avast, LifeLock, Avira, AVG, ReputationDefender, and Ccleaner and evolved from Symantic. ESET is a private company that just does AV and is at the forefront of research so is clearly also expert in the field. Definitely one to keep watching for next time.

[Wainuitech]

You can never go by many of the online reviews. MANY are paid for. ( read between the lines)

The Comment  "ESET goes deeper into the computer to look for malware but Norton is better at stopping it at the gate."

TOTAlly DISAGREE with the last part of that statement, you want to know the number of computers (and I'm talking Hundreds) that are infected with people using Norton thinking their computer is clean  ??  Just yesterday on a customer's PC, HAD Norton, uninstalled and installed Esets - found  5 infections within 1/3 of the scan.

One other you mentioned is actually more of an infection than antivirus --  TotalAV, most of the time the amount of malware it installs is beyond belief.

This goes back to the 1st point, you can never trust review sites, look at the 1st reply on this forum  https://www.reddit.com/r/antivirus/comme...alav_scam/


Why do you think several people from THIS forum recommend Eset ?? Because they actually work in the IT industry ( myself for over 20 years)  and KNOW what it can and cant do.

[king1]

had to laugh, Eset blocks TotalAV webpage

Potentially unwanted content found
This web page is on the list of websites with an uncertain reputation or potentially unwanted content and has been blocked.

Now the cynic might think they are doing this to be anticompetitive, but they don't block Norton, Mcafee, Trend etc?

[king1]

Bitdefender is the only other one mentioned I would rate, but it is still a bit thirsty for system resources, and I have seen it do the exact same thing with emails and security certificates with regards to the OPs original problem

[king1]

The original problem at the beginning of this thread started after a Thunderbird update  and resolved when a Windows update came through. So although I was open to suspecting Norton being the problem, I have no real evidence that it was.

Could be, equally possible Norton pushed out an update in the background and it wasn't until the restart for the windows update that it took effect...  One of the irksome things about IT is that it is quite often difficult to pin down exactly which component has failed on you - sometimes you just gotta take the win when it is back to normal...