the Ukrainian Question

[harm_less]

lilith wrote

 Indeed. 

But the thing is though that we didn't have to behave like that; we didn't have to invade other countries & subjugate other people.

i cannot concur.
we do have to do it. we are driven to do it, its instinctual. innate.
from cain and abel and everything thereafter we have been at war with each other
with nature, with the elements, with our souls.

like ants, we do it, its what we do. it needs no explanation, there is none. 
its inevitable, like the bunny on the crocodiles back good intention is trumped by instinct.

Yes, domination is a basic instinct but when those tendencies are fostered and promoted by greater powers with ulterior motives very bad situations occur. That is how the Ukrainian people have been played by those with greater plans in mind. The video I posted a link to above paints a very different picture to that which we're seeing on prime time news.

[Magoo]

jeez, the bear is bombing the shit out of the ukraines. dumb bombs, not targeted, land willy nilly.
old school, brutal, indiscriminate.
its going to look like syria or sarajevo.
speaking of syria they might send some help by way of weapons and soldiers (not the state of syria)
russia being a common enemy to the rebels down there.
a sizable russian contingent in the ukraine has fallen in behind the ukrainians, they live there and dont appreciate the bombing either.

mess, mess, mess.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

No, we don't have to. It's a choice. That is one of the big lessons of maturity, everything is a choice, albeit sometimes difficult. Those who claim 'you made me do it' or ' I had no choice' are immature thinkers who fail to take responsibility for their own actions.

Children...

[an amniote]

I thought this was interesting also, for even more perspective
https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/

There's a hell of a lot of historical baggage and international interference involved in what is now happening in Ukraine. This is a very enlightening expose' on Ukraine's history

https://rumble.com/vwxxi8-ukraine-on-fire.html (No embed category for this platform)

Re the video, TL;DW.

Historical events are irrelevant here. Putin invaded Ukraine with no provocation on the latter's part (not that provocation is ever an excuse) and has been targeting & murdering civilians. It's like putting the blame on a rape victim.

TBH I've been avoiding news on the war as much as I can because I find it too distressing.

[Magoo]

No, we don't have to. It's a choice. That is one of the big lessons of maturity, everything is a choice, albeit sometimes difficult. Those who claim 'you made me do it' or ' I had no choice' are immature thinkers who fail to take responsibility for their own actions.

Children...

which is lovely on paper and in theory, but history tells the truth.
we cannot stop ourselves.
we go from conflict to conflict, one stops another starts.
weve had to start numbering our world wars.

all the enlightenment i the world doesnt stop it
kimjung has an Oxford education as does Boris.

i dont think there is a place for moral high ground in global politics
taking responsibility for ones actions can work both ways.
waging war and winning has little consequence other than kudos to the victor.
hitler, hannibal, the Bush family all taught us this.

waging war and losing has catastrophic consequences at the polls
usually under the watchful eye of the occupying army.

---

we can force peace on a population
but for all its good intentions isnt sustainable
Tito/Yugoslavia springs to mind.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Some of us do stop ourselves though, which puts the lie to your position. The conflicts in the world are down to a very few very callous self interested people. I think they are mentally ill, but being kind I suggest they are immature personalities.

And the horror and damage they are responsible for far outweighs their value to the planet. That is why I support the death penalty. On the domestic scale, or the international, we would be better off without these people in our world. We cannot afford them.

[Lilith7]

the instinct to 'save lives' quickly turns to 'save our own lives' when under threat
and just as quickly to 'save our own lives by taking theirs' at war.

That's the point really - we have both instincts & sometimes they conflict.

[Magoo]

Some of us do stop ourselves though, which puts the lie to your position. The conflicts in the world are down to a very few very callous self interested people. I think they are mentally ill, but being kind I suggest they are immature personalities.

And the horror and damage they are responsible for far outweighs their value to the planet. That is why I support the death penalty. On the domestic scale, or the international, we would be better off without these people in our world. We cannot afford them.

you put the qualifying word in there, not i. 'some'
the truth to my position is written in history, yes, some leaders stop themselves, and some do not...take vlad.
therein lies the rub, we cannot prevent those who do it not to until theyve done it.
and by then...
this has happened since the dawn of man
this is why we will not stop. 
we cant.

tell me of a day when mankind has not been at war with each other.

---

im not trying to justify war, or implying vlad is just being human as a let off for his actions.
the same way we dont commit murder but some do, there will always be murder, nasty business but you cant stop it until its happened which means...it will never stop.
im saying there were many before vlad, and there will be many to come. this has never nor will ever stop.
tis a noble folly to try to change it, but a folly nonetheless.

[harm_less]

Some of us do stop ourselves though, which puts the lie to your position. The conflicts in the world are down to a very few very callous self interested people. I think they are mentally ill, but being kind I suggest they are immature personalities.

And the horror and damage they are responsible for far outweighs their value to the planet. That is why I support the death penalty. On the domestic scale, or the international, we would be better off without these people in our world. We cannot afford them.

you put the qualifying word in there, not i. 'some'
the truth to my position is written in history, yes, some leaders stop themselves, and some do not...take vlad.
therein lies the rub, we cannot prevent those who do it not to until theyve done it.
and by then...
this has happened since the dawn of man
this is why we will not stop. 
we cant.

tell me of a day when mankind has not been at war with each other.

The problem being that "the first casualty of war is truth" and the propaganda machine is now turbocharged by the use of social media. The Ukraine situation is already rife with 'he said, she said' claims and those in power know all too well the power of social media in convincing the world that theirs is the path of truth. Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has moved to social media to avoid the redactions of main stream media with its links to the world's powerbrokers.

The video I posted above has been hosted on an 'alternative' video streaming service as the producers realise that the likes of YouTube would have canned it in short order. It does after all implicate George W Bush, John Kerry, Joe Biden and numerous other US and Western political officials of less than positive inputs into Ukraine's internal politics over the past few decades.

The death penalty is all well and good as a deterent against evil but it does have a finality and irrevocability about it and for this reason proof of guilt must be unarguable and that is very difficult to attain in an environment of high level propaganda.

[Magoo]

the game plan will change, as will the battlefield
but the conflict will never stop.
social media becomes another tool in the propagandists toolbox. before, during and after conflict
those players involved in causing the russia/ukraine conflict arent relevant now that bombs are dropping, their job is done.

there is no punishment to pre-empt war.,, death penalty or otherwise
chamberlain got off the plane waving around a letter saying the germans were not going to attack
then tore it to pieces the next day in cabinet. he couldnt stop it, no one could, it was coming.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

And if there had been no military aggression it would not have happened.

We have better ways these days to solve these problems. Which is why the conflicts we do have are all inspired by angry little men who have let their egos abuse their power.

[Magoo]

And if there had been no military aggression it would not have happened.

We have better ways these days to solve these problems. Which is why the conflicts we do have are all inspired by angry little men who have let their egos abuse their power.

all this is true hunni
shitty, brutal, sadistic greedy little men
ever since we got the boot from eden.
its depressing, ugly, soul destroying even
and it will never cease.

this heartwarming affirmation of hope, and the joys of life
brought to you by magoo, and despots everywhere.

[harm_less]

the game plan will change, as will the battlefield
but the conflict will never stop.
social media becomes another tool in the propagandists toolbox. before, during and after conflict
those players involved in causing the russia/ukraine conflict arent relevant now that bombs are dropping, their job is done.

Those who built and lit the conflagration are very relevant still, in whether they supply petrol or water to the fire.

[Magoo]

the game plan will change, as will the battlefield
but the conflict will never stop.
social media becomes another tool in the propagandists toolbox. before, during and after conflict
those players involved in causing the russia/ukraine conflict arent relevant now that bombs are dropping, their job is done.

Those who built and lit the conflagration are very relevant still, in whether they supply petrol or water to the fire.

let me know when they are convicted for their actions.
that would be relevant.

[Lilith7]

And if there had been no military aggression it would not have happened.

We have better ways these days to solve these problems. Which is why the conflicts we do have are all inspired by angry little men who have let their egos abuse their power.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/soc...e-movement



The peace movement has been around far longer than I'd realised; just looked it up & the earliest was 1815 (America) & then 1816 (UK) - we're perhaps most familiar with protests to end wars such as the 60's/70's effort to end the war in Vietnam.
Interestingly, peace groups were often predominantly made up of women.

[an amniote]

Interestingly, peace groups were often predominantly made up of women.

A foremost reason must be the potential and real losses of husbands and sons; family livelihoods.

I'm struggling to think of women who have started wars. There might be a couple, but surely they'd be far, far outnumbered by men.

Just a thought: while wars tend to be started by men, it seems that peace tends to be brokered by them, too.

[king1]

Interestingly, peace groups were often predominantly made up of women.

A foremost reason must be the potential and real losses of husbands and sons; family livelihoods.

I'm struggling to think of women who have started wars. There might be a couple, but surely they'd be far, far outnumbered by men.

Just a thought: while wars tend to be started by men, it seems that peace tends to be brokered by them, too.

Catherine The Great comes to mind... 

on a side note, great TV series too 
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2235759/

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Helen of Troy? The excuse for war... And Boudicca who led the rebellion against the Romans, and of course Joan of Arc, another woman history tells fibs about...

No, the only real warmongering woman I can think of was Cersei...

She sez with a wink.

---

A foremost reason must be the potential and real losses of husbands and sons; family livelihoods.

I'm struggling to think of women who have started wars. There might be a couple, but surely they'd be far, far outnumbered by men.

Just a thought: while wars tend to be started by men, it seems that peace tends to be brokered by them, too.

Catherine The Great comes to mind... 

on a side note, great TV series too 
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2235759/

Quite right, I'd forgotten about her.

Bloody Russians. 

[Magoo]

joan of arc was no stranger to the blade
neither was Zena, warrior princess.

[an amniote]

Boudicca who led the rebellion against the Romans, and of course Joan of Arc, another woman history tells fibs about...

Is a rebellion really a war? 

Joan of Arc was an inspirational soldier, not a warmonger.

But Catherine the Great certainly started wars in expanding the Russian Empire.