New Mask Exemption Regime

[king1]

Further to that, are those 'very tiny percentage [that] genuinely need an exemption' allowed out in the community by your reckoning Magoo? assuming they are capable of such - or should they too have to withdraw from society to keep everyone else safe? How will you know who they are?

It almost seems to me like you have formed the opinion that anyone that needs a mask exemption, won't/shouldn't in fact be able to participate in society, therefore you should never see them... Which would be another contradiction because, that being the case, would negate the need for government mandated mask exemptions in the first place...

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Which is exactly why a genuine exemption card is a good move, should have been so from the start. Except I suspect it will be cloned, sold, forged and generally abused as much as the vaccine passes were.

You just cannot stop bad people doing bad stuff, no matter who it hurts.

[Magoo]

Everyone or no one.
There we're doctors passing them out on request with the mandates.
I have such little trust, and such a low opinion of the society we live in that I cannot believe it wont just be a free for all. It will.
The healthy majority are being penalised by the unhealthy few
I wear a mask 6 to 8 hours a day I hate it I hate it so much that I hate those that want to wriggle out of it too arseholes. There wouldn't be more that a couple of hundred genuine cases in this country, bit the buses and supermarkets etc will resemble a 50-50 split of those with and those without.
I don't think it's a big ask for someone to have to wear one to go shopping or sit on a bus

I also think you know this too, but have a self interest in the matter rather than a communal one. You wish to justify it to yourself

[king1]

Everyone or no one.
There we're doctors passing them out on request with the mandates.
I have such little trust, and such a low opinion of the society we live in that I cannot believe it wont just be a free for all. It will.
The healthy majority are being penalised by the unhealthy few
I wear a mask 6 to 8 hours a day  I hate it  I hate it so much that I hate those that want to wriggle out of it too  arseholes. There wouldn't be more that a couple of hundred genuine cases in this country, bit the buses and supermarkets etc will resemble a 50-50 split of those with and those without.
I don't think it's a big ask for someone to have to wear one to go shopping or sit on a bus

I also think you know this too, but have a self interest in the matter rather than a communal one. You wish to justify it to yourself

Well by your mantra, it should be 'no one' then, because you will never be able to get 'everyone' to mask up, some simply can't, hence why we have a mask exemption program... 

Did you catch this part from the link in the OP...

• The difference is that the old cards do not have legal standing and can be questioned. The new cards will provide proof of exemption.
  
  
• If they are questioned, the person questioning them will be at risk of triggering the duties and obligations under the Human Rights Act that protect disabled people (noting that this is defined very broadly in the Human Rights Act)
  

• Exempt persons continue to have the same rights of access to businesses and services irrespective of their optional use of an exemption card.
  
  
• The new cards should be accepted by businesses because they have clear legal status as proof of exemption.
  

• People who fraudulently misuse the process will be in breach of a COVID-19 Order under the COVID-19 (Public Health Response) Act 2020
  

It is providing legal protections to the mask exempt, whilst also providing legal remedies against those that misuse it.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

I eill be interested to see what security measures they put in place, and will not be surprised when some clever clogs gets round them.

Because there is money in it...

[king1]

I eill be interested to see what security measures they put in place, and will not be surprised when some clever clogs gets round them.

Because there is money in it...

most likely, but I guess my point has always been why should the genuine cases be vilified?

[Magoo]

i dont want to see genuine cases vilified. its just that i dont believe there to be more than a few.
if i see a couple of people not wearing one rom time to time i can assume they are a genuine case
it would be better for them if they were wearing an oxygen mask and tank anyway for their emphysema that is so crippling.
but i know it wont be the minuscule few who genuinely need it, i know its going to be half and half in any given location., so do you.
anything else is just rainbow coloured unicorn poo.

at least half and half, you know this to be true. its both disingenuous and naïve to expect anything less.
i know a line of bullshit when i hear it, and 'exemptions' to a health initiative is bullshit. 'Excuses' might be a better name, thats what they are. 'Cant breath'[ my lily white arse, theyve plenty of air when it suits..
i'll wager not one person is penalised for forging or copying or misusing their passes. not one person.
be sure to rub my nose in it if im wrong.
i wont be.

---

I think it has to be that no one has to wear them.
rewarding a bunch of wowsers for being hopeless is the same as punishing those that comply.
wear them or not wear them.
everyone or no one.

---

king1
It is providing legal protections to the mask exempt, whilst also providing legal remedies against those that misuse it.

baaaaahaahahhaahahaahahahaaaa.!! rofl
The Friday funnies.
yes, the police will set up a flying squad for misusers.

---

its not just me. everything i say is common knowledge. 
this doctor is from the CDC in the states.
he gives some very good advice to those compromised folk who wish to mix and mingle.
dont.

this might be your lucky day. i did 45 seconds of research and found this esteemed fellow who might have read my mind our conclusions are so close.

People with underlying chronic lung disease, such as COPD or asthma, should be able to wear a non-N95 facial covering without it affecting their oxygen or carbon dioxide levels," Dr. Albert Rizzo, chief medical officer for the American Lung Association, told ABC News, adding that "masks have no detrimental effects, even in patients with chronic lung disease."

When asked if people who have difficulty breathing with a face mask on should be exempt, he stated: "There are many different facial covers or even shields that could be worn instead, if one cannot tolerate the conventional face mask."

Rizzo said "cases of exemption are very few and far between," and "people with supplemental oxygen or compromised respiratory status which become short of breath even when walking might meet criteria, which in that case, going out in public is a health risk to the person."

i rest my case.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/exempt-wearing...d=71871707

[Lilith7]

Humans are endlessly ingenious, inventive, devious when it comes to finding ways around things; that's how we got to be the beings we now are.
Whatever system those in authority come up with, someone somewhere, will find a way around it, whether that's a fake pass or whatever.

Most of us have the sense to comprehend that without a mask we may be putting others at risk & wear one whenever out in public.

While there may be just a few who genuinely cannot wear a mask, there are going to also be those who won't want to wear a mask simply because those in authority want them to & either they see it as somehow sinister, or they just like outwitting the govt.

And there have been times in the past when outwitting authority was a worthwhile cause which saved lives - in these times though its more likely to put people at risk.

There's nowt so queer as folk.

[king1]

i dont want to see genuine cases vilified. its just that i dont believe there to be more than a few.
if i see a couple of people not wearing one rom time to time i can assume they are a genuine case
it would be better for them if they were wearing an oxygen mask and tank anyway for their emphysema that is so crippling.
but i know it wont be the minuscule few who genuinely need it, i know its going to be half and half in any given location., so do you.
anything else is just rainbow coloured unicorn poo.

at least half and half, you know this to be true. its both disingenuous and naïve to expect anything less.
i know a line of bullshit when i hear it, and 'exemptions' to a health initiative is bullshit. 'Excuses' might be a better name, thats what they are.  'Cant breath'[ my lily white arse, theyve plenty of air when it suits..
i'll wager not one person is penalised for forging or copying or misusing their passes. not one person.
be sure to rub my nose in it if im wrong.
i wont be.

---

I think it has to be that no one has to wear them.
rewarding a bunch of wowsers for being hopeless is the same as punishing those that comply.
wear them or not wear them.
everyone or no one.

---

king1
It is providing legal protections to the mask exempt, whilst also providing legal remedies against those that misuse it.

baaaaahaahahhaahahaahahahaaaa.!! rofl
The Friday funnies.
yes, the police will set up a flying squad for misusers.

---

its not just me. everything i say is common knowledge. 
this doctor is from the CDC in the states.
he gives some very good advice to those compromised folk who wish to mix and mingle.
dont.

this might be your lucky day. i did 45 seconds of research and found this esteemed fellow who might have read my mind our conclusions are so close.

People with underlying chronic lung disease, such as COPD or asthma, should be able to wear a non-N95 facial covering without it affecting their oxygen or carbon dioxide levels," Dr. Albert Rizzo, chief medical officer for the American Lung Association, told ABC News, adding that "masks have no detrimental effects, even in patients with chronic lung disease."

When asked if people who have difficulty breathing with a face mask on should be exempt, he stated: "There are many different facial covers or even shields that could be worn instead, if one cannot tolerate the conventional face mask."

Rizzo said "cases of exemption are very few and far between," and "people with supplemental oxygen or compromised respiratory status which become short of breath even when walking might meet criteria, which in that case, going out in public is a health risk to the person."

i rest my case.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/exempt-wearing...d=71871707

Well I think the most sensible comment from that lot is the quote from Rizzo... 

people with ... compromised respiratory status which become short of breath even when walking might meet criteria, which in that case, going out in public is a health risk to the person."

Why the heck do you think these people would do so unnecessarily?  it is far more of a risk to themselves going out in public than it ever will be to you, pretty sure they won't be doing so on a whim... 

Now, how would you make the distinction between a genuine case and someone who is rorting the system I ask? personally I don't think you can without invading someone's privacy...

But it is kind of important point to consider because, as I mentioned earlier (which you chose not to take seriously), the new framework will apparently give legal disability status to the mask exempt.   That would probably put it in the same category as discrimination on religious grounds, family, sexual orientation, disability etc - none of which, I am sure you would agree, are healthy attitudes for normal people to entertain...

As to whether the police are interested or not I guess time will tell, I was under the impression it was more so a complaint to the Human Rights commission, how much teeth they have is another matter as well, but in my mind, why would anyone in their right mind want to be the subject of a Human Rights complaint anyway...

[Magoo]

king1
Why the fuck do you think these people would do so unnecessarily?  it is far more of a risk to themselves going out in public than it ever will be to you, pretty sure they won't be doing so on a whim...

why indeed?
what use is an exemption card to them?

you might want to deny the medical establishment and pick which parts to follow and which to ignore.
by all means, but im going with the science, no room for wooly thinking and namby pamby lip service.
i'll take it all on board, and the words up there in black and white are irrevocable, it is science.
those exempt are very few and far between, and shouldnt be out mixing anyway.
even the mentals, even the asthmatics, heard of a screen? covers the face, doesnt hinder breathing.
look for ways to help, not ways to dodge and wriggle and slither.

[king1]

king1
Why the fuck do you think these people would do so unnecessarily?  it is far more of a risk to themselves going out in public than it ever will be to you, pretty sure they won't be doing so on a whim...

why indeed?
what use is an exemption card to them?

because they still have to live, and survive, and get necessities, maybe don't have friends and family to support them...  

One can't always wait for food and medicine deliveries to arrive...  if one orders everything online you are paying freight costs in excess of $20-30 a week, probably more, on top of someone probably already limited budget...

What about the workers in the shops that are exempt, they have nice signs up explaining the situation, yet you would what go in and start abusing them for non-compliance, or take a wide berth...

What about the self employed? do they have to give up their business they have built up over the years, just so they can follow Magoo law and stay home, and become a beneficiary, how is that even remotely sensible...

Life is not as black and white as you would like to think it is Magoo...   No one is denying the science here Magoo, you are simply denying someone's legal right to live a semi normal life in a trying environment.

[Magoo]

king1
Well I think the most sensible comment from that lot is the quote from Rizzo... 

heres some more for you, all doctors,  its science pay attention

"I do not see asthma as an impending factor, unless the person is in active acute respiratory distress -- in which case going out in public is not advised.

"I see lots of patients with mental health conditions including anxiety, psychotic and mood disorders, and I am yet to see one come in without a mask," she added. "None of my patients have felt that wearing a mask triggers any of their symptoms."

people with developmental challenges, mental illness, elderly persons with cognitive impairment, chronic respiratory problems and facial trauma or recent surgery. Still, none of the conditions are listed as reasons for exemption.

---

why indeed?
what use is an exemption card to them?

because they still have to live, and survive, and get necessities, maybe don't have friends and family to support them...  

One can't always wait for food and medicine deliveries to arrive...  if one orders everything online you are paying freight costs in excess of $20-30 a week, probably more, on top of someone probably already limited budget...

What about the workers in the shops that are exempt, they have nice signs up explaining the situation, yet you would what go in and start abusing or take a wide berth...

What about the self employed? do they have to give up their business they have built up over the years, just so they can follow Magoo law and stay home, and become a beneficiary, how is that even remotely sensible...

Life is not as black and white as you would like to think it is Magoo...   No one is denying the science here Magoo, you are simply denying someone's legal right to live a semi normal life in a trying environment.

what a lot of watery excuses. im sure we could sit here all weekend coming up with 'what ifs' and 'what abouts'
which only reinforce the fact that its not a miniscule percentage, its every man and his dog.

i wish i could whisper sweet niceties to help you overcome the cold hard facts of a pandemic, but i cannot.
one thing this has taught me is that there are way more people out there who dont give a fuck about anyone else and will do as they wish and get others to do it too, to make themselves feel better. it never occurred to me there be so many. i think we are going to suddenly see a barrage of people applying for exemptions for the fucken weakest of excuses..

im going with half.
i say bullshit to miniscule, theres way more selfish arseholes than miniscule, they will number in the thousands.
run a poll, see how many on a board of twenty contributors will apply for an exemption. we can extrapolate it to fit the population.

miniscule my foot.

[king1]

king1
Well I think the most sensible comment from that lot is the quote from Rizzo... 

heres some more for you, all doctors,  its science pay attention

"I do not see asthma as an impending factor, unless the person is in active acute respiratory distress [lots of people do]-- in which case going out in public is not advised [but sometimes necessary].

"I see lots of patients with mental health conditions including anxiety, psychotic and mood disorders, and I am yet to see one come in without a mask," she added. "None of my patients have felt that wearing a mask triggers any of their symptoms."  [No mention of  actual traumas that might trigger responses like Rape/Sexual Abuse/Mental Abuse etc]

people with developmental challenges, mental illness, elderly persons with cognitive impairment, chronic respiratory problems and facial trauma or recent surgery. Still, none of the conditions are listed as reasons for exemption. [Mostly  agree with]

Hey if that covers all possible medical disabilities, then pat yourself on the back Magoo... You are right and no-one should be allowed outside without a mask...

But just in case, should we entertain the possibility that people can have medical conditions that fall outside your exhaustive list?

[Magoo]

heres some more for you, all doctors,  its science pay attention

Hey if that covers all possible medical disabilities, then pat yourself on the back Magoo... You are right and no-one should be allowed outside without a mask...

But just in case, should we entertain the possibility that people can have medical conditions that fall outside your exhaustive list?

yes, give them both an exemption.

[king1]

Hey if that covers all possible medical disabilities, then pat yourself on the back Magoo... You are right and no-one should be allowed outside without a mask...

But just in case, should we entertain the possibility that people can have medical conditions that fall outside your exhaustive list?

yes, give them both an exemption.

 if only healthcare was as black and white as you Magoo, life would be so much simpler...

[Magoo]

yes, give them both an exemption.

 if only healthcare was as black and white as you Magoo, life would be so much simpler...

alas magoos world is mired in reality

[Oh_hunnihunni]

I have PTSD.

My mask helps with that, it doesn't trigger it. People coughing though, that makes me nervous.

Honestly? A lot of the reasons you give for exemption can be overcome with the right approach and counselling. It is too easy to just hand over an exemption on the grounds of any claimed disability. And I accept that many are invisible. Sometimes though we need to overcome our own limitations in order to protect other people. And funny thing, in my experience, doing that is really hard, but it has unexpected benefits for those who do it.

I am a true fan of Dr Russ Harris. I credit the man with having ideas that may just have saved my life, definitely my sanity. His ACT is well worth a read. And it isn't too new age to swallow. Sometimes we need to do stuff that is very hard.

But it is worth it.

[king1]

Honestly? A lot of the reasons you give for exemption can be overcome with the right approach and counselling. It is too easy to just hand over an exemption on the grounds of any claimed disability. And I accept that many are invisible. Sometimes though we need to overcome our own limitations in order to protect other people. And funny thing, in my experience, doing that is really hard, but it has unexpected benefits for those who do it.

totally agree that they are handed out like a lolly scramble at the moment, ideally I would have thought they should require a medical certificate, or to be issued by a medical professional (what could possibly go wrong there), just to make it that little bit harder to obtain.

The thing is everyone's medical condition is different, there are presumably different degrees of PTSD for example? Ultimately like lots of medical issues I suspect,  blanket, black and white scenarios just don't exist.  IF you can accept that, then the logical extension is some people with PTSD will be more affected than others, and in some cases to an extent they have greater symptoms than others, some might just get flashbacks or whatever, others might not be able to wear masks, depends on the circumstances of their PTSD.   

I just hope folks consider carefully when they do encounter someone without a mask and a mask exemption - you just don't know what their circumstances are, or their medical history...  under the new regime it seems it will also be considered discrimination to enquire/ask/harass/abuse folks under the circumstances...

I will again restate I am only referring to the genuine cases, although clearly some folks here feel there is no such thing as a genuine mask exemption case, not much one can do for that...

Although...

• One could consider the purpose for the government mask exemption regime in the first place, and wonder why it exists...
  
• One could consider the reasons why the government has felt the need to make the document itself "legally recognised as conclusive proof of a person’s exempt status",  and make it discrimination under the Human Rights Act to violate that...
  

[Magoo]

magoo is harder on himself than he is anyone else
i expect no more than my sorry arse can do.
its a low bar, a very low bar.

some people make everything so hard, constantly trying to best the system, to be the exception.
on their own self serving missions not to be on the same plane as everyone else, they have to be special.
more special than the rest of us. To make adjustments to comply is not in their make up, the rest of the world has to bend to their needs. special needs.

---

king1

I will again restate I am only referring to the genuine cases, although clearly some folks here feel there is no such thing as a genuine mask exemption case, not much one can do for that...

i too am happy to see all the genuine cases exempt.

nationwide less than 400 souls.

but you are living in a delusional state if you believe 400 exemptions are to be issued.
we'll see how many wowsers, weaklings and science deniers line up to get one, and they will.
exemptions will be issued by the thousand. by the thousands
for the 400 genuine exemptions in the country we will see how many exemptions are granted.

in dreamland only 400 will be issued, but we dont live in dreamland.
well some of us dont.

[king1]

FYI here is the current reasons allowed to obtain a mask exemption...

Requesting a communication card

Please select which of the following apply to you:
I have asthma, and this makes wearing a face covering difficult
I have a skin irritation, eczema, or sensitive skin and this makes wearing a face covering difficult
I wear hearing aids, and these make wearing a face covering difficult
I get migraines, and these make wearing a face covering difficult
I have glasses, dry eyes or contact lenses and these make wearing a face covering difficult
I get hay fever, and this makes wearing a face covering difficult
I have difficulty breathing, and this makes wearing a face covering difficult
I get dizziness, headaches, nausea or tiredness, and these make wearing a face covering difficult
Wearing a face covering gives me a runny nose
My child cannot wear a face covering at school
I must regularly communicate with someone who is deaf or hard-of-hearing, and a face covering makes that difficult to do
I have a physical or mental illness, condition or disability that means I am unable to wear a face covering
None of these apply to me
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