things i saw...

[Magoo]

"Woolly thinking " my arse; its what needs to happen.
And it was Celia Lashlie - who was greatly experienced - who said that the best, most effective way was not to continually judge & berate but instead to get alongside & give support & help.

Although I agree about entire families just clamming up; ways & means of ending that particular nonsense may have to include imprisonment for attempting to pervert the course of justice; I'm fairly sure we have a law about that. And probably the threat of using it would be sufficient.

But not the rest since that's likely to have far reaching effects which are likely to make things worse for any children involved.

ohlook , a unicorn shitting glitter flecked rainbow coloured poop
hows that 'working alongside and giving support' been working out lill? can you show me any significant , hell id settle for insignificant change this has generated? 
abject and evident failure for over fifty years. in the worst  five developed countries for infanticide  on earth? 
hardly a success story. it clearly doesnt work, and i think disingenuous of you to suggest it as a viable solution.

---

ive come up with alternative solutions we can start today if we wanted to without spending another additional cent on trying to deal with it. note, trying.
brutal and distasteful as my approach is, it is not as ugly and brutal as the act of infanticide.
killing babies with your bare hands is an extreme act which begets an extreme reaction.
these are difficult decisions, demanding, uncomfortable, ethical/moral discussion of a question that we dislike, which we find distasteful and bitter, but must answer nonetheless.

id be gratified indeed to hear some alternative offerings, as opposed to umbrage and defensiveness for any of mine

[Lilith7]

Celia Lashlie was getting good results & her trust continues to do so. This is not something which can be fixed quickly & Celia Lashlie's methods certainly haven't been tried for over 50 years.
What has been tried for well over 50 years - centuries in fact, is the same old short sighted 'lock 'em up & throw away the key'

https://www.celialashlie.nz/

https://www.facebook.com/celialashlielegacy/

"Two things to take note of in this article - particularly as the “we are being soft on crime” rhetoric begins (sigh)…..
“Overall, is youth crime on the rise? The short answer: No. Youth crime has been tracking down for a long time, with the latest Youth Justice Indicators Summary Report revealing offending rates among tamariki aged 10 to 13 fell by 65% between 2010/11 and 2020/21. There has definitely been a spike in the ramraids in Auckland over the last few months, but still the trajectory for youth crime overall nationally is down”

…. And in terms of solutions ? “There are generations of inequality, there are socio-economic factors, there’s a ton of different things that come into play that cause this space where young people are having to revert to crime……For Pouesi, his goal for rangatahi was that every single one had an adult who thought the world of them. That is where the solution to youth crime could lie, but it wasn’t easy to achieve…”
Let’s remain evidence based instead of knee jerk “let’s get tough on crime” statements!"

[Magoo]

Celia Lashlie was getting good results & her trust continues to do so. This is not something which can be fixed quickly & Celia Lashlie's methods certainly haven't been tried for over 50 years.
What has been tried for well over 50 years - centuries in fact, is the same old short sighted 'lock 'em up & throw away the key'

https://www.celialashlie.nz/

https://www.facebook.com/celialashlielegacy/

"Two things to take note of in this article - particularly as the “we are being soft on crime” rhetoric begins (sigh)…..
“Overall, is youth crime on the rise? The short answer: No. Youth crime has been tracking down for a long time, with the latest Youth Justice Indicators Summary Report revealing offending rates among tamariki aged 10 to 13 fell by 65% between 2010/11 and 2020/21. There has definitely been a spike in the ramraids in Auckland over the last few months, but still the trajectory for youth crime overall nationally is down”

…. And in terms of solutions ? “There are generations of inequality, there are socio-economic factors, there’s a ton of different things that come into play that cause this space where young people are having to revert to crime……For Pouesi, his goal for rangatahi was that every single one had an adult who thought the world of them. That is where the solution to youth crime could lie, but it wasn’t easy to achieve…”
Let’s remain evidence based instead of knee jerk “let’s get tough on crime” statements!"

thats a lot of watery reasons excuses to continue doing nothing. too hard?

what age old 'lock em up and throw away the key' solution is that?
to my knowledge its been years since we successfully prosecuted and punished a child murderer. hardly a whisper of it after each child is buried.
our criminal justice system has thus far been impotent to act on any of this. each year it gets worse, but we refuse to apply the system as it was intended, of course it doesnt work. we wont let it.
every person reaches a point where they have to choose to do right or wrong. i cannot accept that this choice is negated by poor upbringing or trauma, its a choice, not an instruction. if the murderers life was so traumatic why are we learning about it in retrospect? should not the parents been made to answer to that? but we leave the offender and the root cause of the offender to carry on with their sick lives.

---

it would seem there are those that find our deplorable world beating statistics acceptable.
that think the approach we've taken thus far works, and change isnt necessary.
that would continue to blame abstract historical events as the cause, nullifying the need for change, blaming the previous generation and letting the ether inhabiting apologists and academia influence outcomes to which they have no claim..

i dont see much room for compassion when someone has killed a child with their bare hands.
ive even less compassion for someone who defends, minimises or accepts it as part of life.
we are the country that produces more child murderers in our world than all our peers, and thats ok.

[Lilith7]

Celia Lashlie was getting good results & her trust continues to do so. This is not something which can be fixed quickly & Celia Lashlie's methods certainly haven't been tried for over 50 years.
What has been tried for well over 50 years - centuries in fact, is the same old short sighted 'lock 'em up & throw away the key'

https://www.celialashlie.nz/

https://www.facebook.com/celialashlielegacy/

"Two things to take note of in this article - particularly as the “we are being soft on crime” rhetoric begins (sigh)…..
“Overall, is youth crime on the rise? The short answer: No. Youth crime has been tracking down for a long time, with the latest Youth Justice Indicators Summary Report revealing offending rates among tamariki aged 10 to 13 fell by 65% between 2010/11 and 2020/21. There has definitely been a spike in the ramraids in Auckland over the last few months, but still the trajectory for youth crime overall nationally is down”

…. And in terms of solutions ? “There are generations of inequality, there are socio-economic factors, there’s a ton of different things that come into play that cause this space where young people are having to revert to crime……For Pouesi, his goal for rangatahi was that every single one had an adult who thought the world of them. That is where the solution to youth crime could lie, but it wasn’t easy to achieve…”
Let’s remain evidence based instead of knee jerk “let’s get tough on crime” statements!"

thats a lot of watery reasons excuses to continue doing nothing. too hard?

what age old 'lock em up and throw away the key' solution is that?
to my knowledge its been years since we successfully prosecuted and punished a child murderer. hardly a whisper of it after each child is buried.
our criminal justice system has thus far been impotent to act on any of this. each year it gets worse, but we refuse to apply the system as it was intended, of course it doesnt work. we wont let it.
every person reaches a point where they have to choose to do right or wrong. i cannot accept that this choice is negated by poor upbringing or trauma, its a choice, not an instruction. if the murderers life was so traumatic why are we learning about it in retrospect? should not the parents been made to answer to that? but we leave the offender and the root cause of the offender to carry on with their sick lives.

---

it would seem there are those that find our deplorable world beating statistics acceptable.
that think the approach we've taken thus far works, and change isnt necessary.
that would continue to blame abstract historical events as the cause, nullifying the need for change, blaming the previous generation and letting the ether inhabiting apologists and academia influence outcomes to which they have no claim..

i dont see much room for compassion when someone has killed a child with their bare hands.
ive even less compassion for someone who defends, minimises or accepts it as part of life.
we are the country that produces more child murderers in our world than all our peers, and thats ok.

There's little point in handing out ever more severe punishments when they simply do not work; they don't prevent these types of crimes from continuing to happen & that surely is the desired eventual outcome when dealing with this kind of crime.

Find the causes & fix them, that old saying : 'An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure' makes a good deal of sense when it comes to crime, & especially crimes against children.
I've yet to meet anyone who believes our stats on child murders are in any way acceptable.
We very seldom if ever, hear of the lives of those who later commit this type of crime - or at least, not until its far too late to attempt any move to change things. Really, this is something which can't be fixed quickly & we will eventually have to understand that rather than expecting to solve the problem in a couple of months, or even a couple of years.

[Magoo]

thats a lot of watery reasons excuses to continue doing nothing. too hard?

what age old 'lock em up and throw away the key' solution is that?
to my knowledge its been years since we successfully prosecuted and punished a child murderer. hardly a whisper of it after each child is buried.
our criminal justice system has thus far been impotent to act on any of this. each year it gets worse, but we refuse to apply the system as it was intended, of course it doesnt work. we wont let it.
every person reaches a point where they have to choose to do right or wrong. i cannot accept that this choice is negated by poor upbringing or trauma, its a choice, not an instruction. if the murderers life was so traumatic why are we learning about it in retrospect? should not the parents been made to answer to that? but we leave the offender and the root cause of the offender to carry on with their sick lives.

---

it would seem there are those that find our deplorable world beating statistics acceptable.
that think the approach we've taken thus far works, and change isnt necessary.
that would continue to blame abstract historical events as the cause, nullifying the need for change, blaming the previous generation and letting the ether inhabiting apologists and academia influence outcomes to which they have no claim..

i dont see much room for compassion when someone has killed a child with their bare hands.
ive even less compassion for someone who defends, minimises or accepts it as part of life.
we are the country that produces more child murderers in our world than all our peers, and thats ok.

There's little point in handing out ever more severe punishments when they simply do not work; they don't prevent these types of crimes from continuing to happen & that surely is the desired eventual outcome when dealing with this kind of crime.

Find the causes & fix them, that old saying : 'An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure' makes a good deal of sense when it comes to crime, & especially crimes against children.
I've yet to meet anyone who believes our stats on child murders are in any way acceptable.
We very seldom if ever, hear of the lives of those who later commit this type of crime - or at least, not until its far too late to attempt any move to change things. Really, this is something which can't be fixed quickly & we will eventually have to understand that rather than expecting to solve the problem in a couple of months, or even a couple of years.

why have we been for years and continue to be among the worlds worst then? year after year?
the only difference between us and any other developed country can only be down to its citizenry.
either our unwillingness to act, or our acceptance of it as part of our culture.  it can be both, or one or t'other.
but rest assured it is us, our statistic.
we have to own that.

---

i am reminded of the line repeated ad nauseum whenever i want to use prisoners as crash test dummies or
bicycle stands, something along the lines of
'a nation is measured by its treatment of the weakest members.' or some other such nonsense.
probly that bandy legged paki chap ghandi or whatever his handle is. or his mate the deli llama. but i digress
my point is this, we give more time effort and respect to criminals, who get lawyers, witnesses, a fair hearing than we do a much more vulnerable class and that is infants.

so by whom do we measure our worth as a society?.

[Lilith7]

Nobody is saying we shouldn't 'own it'. It would be pointless to pretend that we haven't got an appalling record when it comes to child murder.

The countries with the highest rate of child murders are all in south America.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/10-c...ca-n766731

But our statistics are high.
https://www.childmatters.org.nz/insights/nz-statistics/


It might not be such a bad idea to have compulsory parenting classes in schools (taught by parents with some teaching experience) to include the basics of parenting, cooking, budgeting & gardening.
And we could do worse than to also teach empathy in every school; it won't solve the whole problem but it would certainly help.

[Magoo]

so it just goes on? unchallenged, unabated?
we're just going to continue to do what we are now?
how depressing. the killers win, no consequences,
why lock up any offender for anything then? why bother with laws at all if we dont apply them?
why is it ok to prosecute and jail a regular murderer but killing a child requires empathy for the killer?
thats a pretty fucked up society we're building.

you want us just to shrug our shoulders and look in another direction liil?
we cant do that we'd have the worst record on earth.
wait no, we have done that and we do have the worst record on earth.
South america is largely third world, we are on our way down to their level but not there yet
a few more years of apologising for the killers, minimising their crimes, doing nothing and paying lip service to our legislation and justice system should finish it.
it will take at least three more terms of stagnant ineffective labour governance to achieve that.

better to change nothing, continue to watch it worsen than to try any other approach?
to strive to fix it a waste of breath and time? or only try to fix it in 'approved' way.?
that hasnt worked, not at all, ever. anywhere.

were i not such a tenacious bastard id be disheartened and depressed at this point and give up like most have, ta lil.
in doing so would bring home to me the parallel between us and our societal ill, and the americans and their societal ill which they seem to have given up on fixing as well.

they say their societal ill is cultural, guns are part of their culture.
i cannot accept that part of our culture includes a predilection for infanticide.
but there it is, the statistics dont lie

[Lilith7]

so it just goes on? unchallenged, unabated?
we're just going to continue to do what we are now?
how depressing. the killers win, no consequences,
why lock up any offender for anything then? why bother with laws at all if we dont apply them?
why is it ok to prosecute and jail a regular murderer but killing a child requires empathy for the killer?
thats a pretty fucked up society we're building.

you want us just to shrug our shoulders and look in another direction liil?
we cant do that we'd have the worst record on earth.
wait no, we have done that and we do have the worst record on earth.
South america is largely third world, we are on our way down to their level but not there yet
a few more years of apologising for the killers, minimising their crimes, doing nothing and paying lip service to our legislation and justice system should finish it.
it will take at least three more terms of stagnant ineffective labour governance to achieve that.

better to change nothing, continue to watch it worsen than to try any other approach?
to strive to fix it a waste of breath and time? or only try to fix it in 'approved' way.?
that hasnt worked, not at all, ever. anywhere.

were i not such a tenacious bastard id be disheartened and depressed at this point and give up like most have, ta lil.
in doing so would bring home to me the parallel between us and our societal ill, and the americans and their societal ill which they seem to have given up on fixing as well.

they say their societal ill is cultural, guns are part of their culture.
i cannot accept that part of our culture includes a predilection for infanticide.
but there it is, the statistics dont lie

None of that is at all what I said.
Once again, this is something which can't be solved quickly. Teaching children empathy isn't 'requiring empathy for the killer.'


Find the causes & address them & we might begin to be able to change this. If you've never had good parenting yourself then you're almost certainly not going to be a good parent & so it just continues on through each generation. The violence, the lack of any feeling of self worth - & possible masking of that with alcohol or other drugs will just continue, & kids will continue to be beaten & abused & some, murdered.

[Magoo]

so it just goes on? unchallenged, unabated?
we're just going to continue to do what we are now?
how depressing. the killers win, no consequences,
why lock up any offender for anything then? why bother with laws at all if we dont apply them?
why is it ok to prosecute and jail a regular murderer but killing a child requires empathy for the killer?
thats a pretty fucked up society we're building.

you want us just to shrug our shoulders and look in another direction liil?
we cant do that we'd have the worst record on earth.
wait no, we have done that and we do have the worst record on earth.
South america is largely third world, we are on our way down to their level but not there yet
a few more years of apologising for the killers, minimising their crimes, doing nothing and paying lip service to our legislation and justice system should finish it.
it will take at least three more terms of stagnant ineffective labour governance to achieve that.

better to change nothing, continue to watch it worsen than to try any other approach?
to strive to fix it a waste of breath and time? or only try to fix it in 'approved' way.?
that hasnt worked, not at all, ever. anywhere.

were i not such a tenacious bastard id be disheartened and depressed at this point and give up like most have, ta lil.
in doing so would bring home to me the parallel between us and our societal ill, and the americans and their societal ill which they seem to have given up on fixing as well.

they say their societal ill is cultural, guns are part of their culture.
i cannot accept that part of our culture includes a predilection for infanticide.
but there it is, the statistics dont lie

None of that is at all what I said.
Once again, this is something which can't be solved quickly. Teaching children empathy isn't 'requiring empathy for the killer.'


Find the causes & address them & we might begin to be able to change this. If you've never had good parenting yourself then you're almost certainly not going to be a good parent & so it just continues on through each generation. The violence, the lack of any feeling of self worth - & possible masking of that with alcohol or other drugs will just continue, & kids will continue to be beaten & abused & some, murdered.

yes, it will continue unless we interrupt it. as it has continued and worsened for fifty uninterrupted years.
to continue on this path is to continue to do nothing but pay lip service to the problem.
children die whilst we wring our hands and pontificate about parenting skills.
yet we take action over-nite when another demographic is targeted? (see christchurch massacre vs guns)
a very sad reflection of our priorities imo, and continued complicity by inaction, enabling it to continue unabated.

[Praktica]

Years ago, I was involved in a group which produced a 3 monthly magazine - an "alternative lifestyle" magazine called Mushroom. We used to get new people coming to our meetings, with wonderful ideas of what we could do. We would tell them to work on their ideas, and come back with a viable project...few ever returned.
This is the problem I see with threads like this - lots of identifying problems, and complaints "they" aren't doing enough, but few practical ideas to help solve the problems, and little personal committment from those complaining, to solve the problems.

[Lilith7]

If we were to get off our collective bums & target the problem at all levels, that might help.
Parenting classes in schools (compulsory) including the basics of budgeting etc. etc. for starters. And get help to those families which are struggling with violence & any types of abuse - actual help & support, to become better able to cope, with that help continuing for years if needed.
Address poverty here - & as its taken 30 odd years to get this bad, we can't expect fast results. And get input from the experts in this area since they're the people dealing with it so should know what's needed.

[Magoo]

Years ago, I was involved in a group which produced a 3 monthly magazine - an "alternative lifestyle" magazine called Mushroom. We used to get new people coming to our meetings, with wonderful ideas of what we could do. We would tell them to work on their ideas, and come back with a viable project...few ever returned.
This is the problem I see with threads like this - lots of identifying problems, and complaints "they" aren't doing enough, but few practical ideas to help solve the problems, and little personal committment from those complaining, to solve the problems.

covids over, so now i go out onto the interwebby and rail against the minimisers, the cultural apologists, fluffy duck academia and our impotent police force.
i will make lots of noise, piss heaps of people off, get up in faces, get thrown out, banned, disbarred and excommunicated. i will force people to think about it. i will shove the topic and its stench right under noses.  as well as the written tirades i send to our politicians, thats my personal commitment. 

i have offered several ideas not deemed palatable enough for the apologists here. nothing beyond asking that laws be upheld and the justice system applied accordingly.
ive many more, but am reluctant to share them with such an indifferent audience who seem happy with the status quo. 
im pretty sure i already contribute to the systems we have created and charged to deal with the issue.
i wonder why i do tho, they do nothing but whine about being understaffed and underpaid and the problems grow worse.  if we were to defund anything in this country i would start with our social services. shrinks and empaths that live in lala land, write reports, go to conferences, and fuck all else, as evidenced by our statistics.
i know my taxes also include a fair bit for the police too, who refuse to investigate or prosecute these killers.
how can i hold these folks to task?

short of vigilante action theres little else left at grass roots. those we pay to do the job, dont, and we let them.  so im gonna be a dick about that for a start. are they lazy or frightened, or have they been instructed to stand down?

now if our lily livered soft cock social system could intervene at some point, interrupt the cycle, then our soft cock police wont have to go thru the indignity of criminals and their families laughing at them and treating them like a joke. which is what we have now.
then i wont have to be a prick about it.
i have a real problem with infanticide being deemed part of our culture, 
i just cannot tolerate it.

---

If we were to get off our collective bums & target the problem at all levels, that might help.
Parenting classes in schools (compulsory) including the basics of budgeting etc. etc. for starters. And get help to those families which are struggling with violence & any types of abuse - actual help & support, to become better able to cope, with that help continuing for years if needed.
Address poverty here - & as its taken 30 odd years to get this bad, we can't expect fast results. And get input from the experts in this area since they're the people dealing with it so should know what's needed.

we already do this (parenting classes etc) basic budgeting blah blah. we have systems in place for families as victims of violence. but still no change, more deaths. if we could prosecute and incarcerate the offenders it would go a long way towards making families safer, would it not?  you cant beat the shit out of your partner or kids from a jail cell.  but this is not the answer im told. but im not told what is.  its not whatever we are doing now, thats not working.

lil its been bad for fifty years and getting worse, we are going backwards, failing, losing. what we are doing does not work and has not worked, at all.  we cant expect fast results, but surely negative results are less acceptable, and thats where we are now, it worsens, on our watch.  we have made no positive progress in that time.

[harm_less]

Years ago, I was involved in a group which produced a 3 monthly magazine - an "alternative lifestyle" magazine called Mushroom. We used to get new people coming to our meetings, with wonderful ideas of what we could do. We would tell them to work on their ideas, and come back with a viable project...few ever returned.
This is the problem I see with threads like this - lots of identifying problems, and complaints "they" aren't doing enough, but few practical ideas to help solve the problems, and little personal committment from those complaining, to solve the problems.

covids over, so now i go out onto the interwebby and rail against the minimisers, the cultural apologists, fluffy duck academia and our impotent police force.
i will make lots of noise, piss heaps of people off, get up in faces, get thrown out, banned, disbarred and excommunicated. i will force people to think about it. i will shove the topic and its stench right under noses.  as well as the written tirades i send to our politicians, thats my personal commitment. 

i have offered several ideas not deemed palatable enough for the apologists here. nothing beyond asking that laws be upheld and the justice system applied accordingly.
ive many more, but am reluctant to share them with such an indifferent audience who seem happy with the status quo. 
im pretty sure i already contribute to the systems we have created and charged to deal with the issue.
i wonder why i do tho, they do nothing but whine about being understaffed and underpaid and the problems grow worse.  if we were to defund anything in this country i would start with our social services. shrinks and empaths that live in lala land, write reports, go to conferences, and fuck all else, as evidenced by our statistics.
i know my taxes also include a fair bit for the police too, who refuse to investigate or prosecute these killers.
how can i hold these folks to task?

short of vigilante action theres little else left at grass roots. those we pay to do the job, dont, and we let them.  so im gonna be a dick about that for a start. are they lazy or frightened, or have they been instructed to stand down?

now if our lily livered soft cock social system could intervene at some point, interrupt the cycle, then our soft cock police wont have to go thru the indignity of criminals and their families laughing at them and treating them like a joke. which is what we have now.
then i wont have to be a prick about it.
i have a real problem with infanticide being deemed part of our culture, 
i just cannot tolerate it.

---

If we were to get off our collective bums & target the problem at all levels, that might help.
Parenting classes in schools (compulsory) including the basics of budgeting etc. etc. for starters. And get help to those families which are struggling with violence & any types of abuse - actual help & support, to become better able to cope, with that help continuing for years if needed.
Address poverty here - & as its taken 30 odd years to get this bad, we can't expect fast results. And get input from the experts in this area since they're the people dealing with it so should know what's needed.

we already do this (parenting classes etc) basic budgeting blah blah. we have systems in place for families as victims of violence. but still no change, more deaths. if we could prosecute and incarcerate the offenders it would go a long way towards making families safer, would it not?  you cant beat the shit out of your partner or kids from a jail cell.  but this is not the answer im told. but im not told what is.  its not whatever we are doing now, thats not working.

lil its been bad for fifty years and getting worse, we are going backwards, failing, losing. what we are doing does not work and has not worked, at all.  we cant expect fast results, but surely negative results are less acceptable, and thats where we are now, it worsens, on our watch.  we have made no positive progress in that time.

Good luck with your abrasive approach. It isn't likely to do jack shit.

The problem is an engrained one over multiple generations. Once you've found a way to solve it you might want to tell the health system about it because a similarly stubborn behavioral problem is at the root of our burgeoning 'lifestyle' related non-communicable diseases epidemic. The doctors can tell patients to stop eating shit food and get off their arses and exercise but changing lifestyles is near on impossible until the person is on death's door. Even then they will battle on with their bad habits. During time I spent in hospital a couple of years back it was common to see patients in wheelchairs, some with IVs still place, outside the hospital entrance having a cigarette. Similarly the accommodation I stayed in (for cancer patients) had an outdoor gazebo area where smokers congregated to smoke and drink in the evenings, and they were all there for cancer treatment. Go figure!

Some belligerent critic is unlikely to make a jot of difference and may actually increase the aggro that is at the root of their criminal brutality.

[Magoo]

Harm-less
Good luck with your abrasive approach. It isn't likely to do jack shit.

yes you are probably right. but i will go to my grave knowing i used everything in my arsenal to effect change,
i want to feel my backbone holding my head up when i stand
abrasive is magoos way. uncompromising and absolute, blunt and brutal.  i dont feel an inclination to be popular, liked or accepted, i'll verbally rip your arm off and club you into submission with it. if i can get you get as pissed off as i am about it then thats a win.

Harm-less
The problem is an engrained one over multiple generations. Once you've found a way to solve it you might want to tell the health system about it because a similarly stubborn behavioral problem is at the root of our burgeoning 'lifestyle' related non-communicable diseases epidemic. The doctors can tell patients to stop eating shit food and get off their arses and exercise but changing lifestyles is near on impossible until the person is on death's door. Even then they will battle on with their bad habits. During time I spent in hospital a couple of years back it was common to see patients in wheelchairs, some with IVs still place, outside the hospital entrance having a cigarette. Similarly the accommodation I stayed in (for cancer patients) had an outdoor gazebo area where smokers congregated to smoke and drink in the evenings, and they were all there for cancer treatment. Go figure!

none of this is reason or excuse to kill a child with your bare hands.
none of this explains why we are worse than our peers with infanticide.
it is just aimless excuse making
why are we consistently among the worst in the world?
why are we not ashamed to the core about it?

Harm-less
Some belligerent critic is unlikely to make a jot of difference and may actually increase the aggro that is at the root of their criminal brutality.

and it will still be a hundred times better than the nothing that you want/plan to do.

---

Harm-less
Good luck with your abrasive approach.

and the best of luck with your namby pamby, sitting on your hands, doing less than nothing, except criticise someone elses efforts approach.
it goes some way to explaining our predicament.

[Lilith7]

Parenting classes aren't compulsory & in every school. Nor are all children taught empathy.

Preventing people from going down a path which leads to a life of crime & imprisonment isn't happening, or not to any great extent.

Smoking is one of the hardest addictions to overcome, & if someone who's extremely ill is still smoking then while that's far from ideal, having a cig now & then may be in part what's helping them get through it.

And while there are systems in place to help families, they're quite obviously not widespread enough.
Again, this is something which may well take decades to change & it may need various different methods.

Incidentally since the Dunedin study found that teenagers sent to prison tend to almost overwhelmingly then continue on with a life of crime, while those given other penalties do not.

[harm_less]

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Harm-less
Good luck with your abrasive approach.

and the best of luck with your namby pamby, sitting on your hands, doing less than nothing, except criticise someone elses efforts approach.
it goes some way to explaining our predicament.

Where did I advocate doing nothing?

Your continuing tirades are proof perfect of my claim that people's behaviour is far from easy to modify. A measured and well thought through approach is going to have more success than a 'bull at a gate' one and that's what is needed to address the social ills that are the cause of this domestic violence, not more aggro.

[king1]