FFS leave GST alone Chippy

[Wainuiguy]

So if this week kumera were $4.99 a kilo, then next week GST comes off.  You go back to the same supermarket but rather than $4.24 (the price it should be after GST is removed)  the kumera are $5.49 a kg.  Did you save the GST?

That example says far more about the domination of the big supermarkets and their marketing methods than it does about products' GST content. Also worth noting that the fresh produce department of any supermarket is the most heavily manipulated for marketing purposes. Even wondered why the fruit and vege department is always the first one you encounter on entering a supermarket? This is because it is the product sector that is most difficult to differentiate from in regard to the competing retailers.

A can of beans, bag of sugar or litre of milk are all identical between stores but not so with a head of broccoli or hand of bananas. Size, freshness, appearance, smell are all far more subjective than for most other items so these qualities can be magnified (or disquised) to advantage, and also those considered as staples such as potatoes are often used as loss leaders.

So after 2 paragraphs your answer is "I can't tell if I saved GST".

[king1]

And that is an education issue, not a cost one. It's like the idiots who buy bottled water instead of a filter system. Some people will just not be changed. But lots will, especially if we educate, starting in schools. And the trend towards plant based foods is not going away...

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Can't answer that, rarely buy bags of spuds. Occasionally buy a single one, but really I prefer kumara...

So if this week kumera were $4.99 a kilo, then next week GST comes off.  You go back to the same supermarket but rather than $4.24 (the price it should be after GST is removed)  the kumera are $5.49 a kg.  Did you save the GST?

all other things being equal, most definitely YES - but as you mention earlier, other factors like supply issues and natural disasters affect market prices, all the time to be honest, so expecting the price for some items to be the same week on week is illogical... The reality is a kilo of Kumera on that day in your scenario would have been 6.30 ish if it was not for the GST free.

You cannot assert that the GST free bit doesn't work and use unrelated market movements due to other factors as the the reason...

[dken31]

Labour removing GST proves one of two things: either they're too incompetent to realise it that it is a truly dreadful idea, or they do realise but are happy to do it anyway because it is popular (due to the general public not realising it is a bad idea).

All of the speciists in this area have very vocally opposed it; spelling out why it is such a bad idea, and yet Labour ignore them all. After several years of going on about "trusting the experts", why are the experts being ignored now?

It will have negligible to no effect on the price of f&v, while adding in a huge amount of complexity and ambiguity to the GST system, and it will massively increase the cost of both compliance and enforcement.

---

Australia & UK have various food related GST (/VAT) exclusions and they've proven to be hugely inefficient and complex. As the owner of an accounting firm, I will benefit from the extra work this will bring us (if it gets in), but I'm not looking forward to having to explain to affected clients why the cost of doing their GST returns will double/triple

[harm_less]

That example says far more about the domination of the big supermarkets and their marketing methods than it does about products' GST content. Also worth noting that the fresh produce department of any supermarket is the most heavily manipulated for marketing purposes. Even wondered why the fruit and vege department is always the first one you encounter on entering a supermarket? This is because it is the product sector that is most difficult to differentiate from in regard to the competing retailers.

A can of beans, bag of sugar or litre of milk are all identical between stores but not so with a head of broccoli or hand of bananas. Size, freshness, appearance, smell are all far more subjective than for most other items so these qualities can be magnified (or disquised) to advantage, and also those considered as staples such as potatoes are often used as loss leaders.

So after 2 paragraphs your answer is "I can't tell if I saved GST".

It's an example of backing a post with reasoned logic. I've found this to be more useful and informative than just posting unsupported opinions and interjections.

[Lilith7]

Sadly, I think SueDonim is right.  It is already cheaper to buy fresh ingredients and cook them, but vast numbers of shoppers go for processed food because it is easier/they can't cook and don't want to learn/they have a taste for over-salted over-sweetened junk food.

And that is an education issue, not a cost one. It's like the idiots who buy bottled water instead of a filter system. Some people will just not be changed. But lots will, especially if we educate, starting in schools. And the trend towards plant based foods is not going away...

---

So if it is such a "no  brainer" why are almost all tax experts saying it shouldn't happen and will have virtually no impact on the day to day cost of fresh fruit and veges?

[Removed: Rule 2J]

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Because of heavy rain and reduced supply- $6.99.

Can't answer that, rarely buy bags of spuds. Occasionally buy a single one, but really I prefer kumara...

"And that is an education issue, not a cost one. It's like the idiots who buy bottled water instead of a filter system. Some people will just not be changed. But lots will, especially if we educate, starting in schools. And the trend towards plant based foods is not going away..."

As a good many of us have been advocating for at least a decade now; the basics of cooking, budgeting & parenting should be taught in high schools.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Labour removing GST proves one of two things: either they're too incompetent to realise it that it is a truly dreadful idea, or they do realise but are happy to do it anyway because it is popular (due to the general public not realising it is a bad idea).

All of the speciists in this area have very vocally opposed it; spelling out why it is such a bad idea, and yet Labour ignore them all.  After several years of going on about "trusting the experts", why are the experts being ignored now?

It will have negligible to no effect on the price of f&v, while adding in a huge amount of complexity and ambiguity to the GST system, and it will massively increase the cost of both compliance and enforcement.

---

Australia & UK have various food related GST (/VAT) exclusions and they've proven to be hugely inefficient and complex.  As the owner of an accounting firm, I will benefit from the extra work this will bring us (if it gets in), but I'm not looking forward to having to explain to affected clients why the cost of doing their GST returns will double/triple

Excellent! That along with the access to cheaper roughage in your diet should make a huge difference to your productivity.

[Wainuiguy]

So if this week kumera were $4.99 a kilo, then next week GST comes off.  You go back to the same supermarket but rather than $4.24 (the price it should be after GST is removed)  the kumera are $5.49 a kg.  Did you save the GST?

all other things being equal, most definitely YES - but as you mention earlier, other factors like supply issues and natural disasters affect market prices, all the time to be honest, so expecting the price for some items to be the same week on week is illogical...  The reality is a kilo of Kumera on that day in your scenario would have been 6.30 ish if it was not for the GST free. 

You cannot assert that the GST free but doesn't work and use unrelated market movements due to other factors as the the reason...

Which means over time there will be no way to show if GST has just been absorbed into the price - which just exactly what experts, including the Minister of Finance, have been saying.  The very reason Grant Robertson poured cold water on the idea in May.

[harm_less]

Which means over time tgere will be nk way to show if GST has just been absorbed into the price - which just exactly what experts, including the Minister of Finance, have been saying.  The very reason Grant Robertson poured cold water on the idea in May.

As I alluded to above the pricing of any retail item, and especially fresh produce, has so many components there is no way to attribute price variations to any one factor.

The price on that bag of carrots includes payment to grower (typically as low as 10% of retail price), numerous freight events, packaging, shelf placement (possibly including a charge for premium display location), share of store's lease and heating/refrigeration/cleaning costs, checkout staff input, electronic stock monitoring and inventory registration, payment system commissions, advertising, insurance (premises, stock, public liability), contribution to shoplifting losses and/or spoilt stock and probably dozens of other incidental costs.

The presence of GST in the price is easily identified by the absence of this within the supermarket's accounts (for food items that are deemed exempt) but to the typical shopper all they are looking for is a proportional reduction in cost at the checkout, and many of these shoppers whose depth of expense analysis leads them to regard that filling their car's tank with petrol is the extent of their personal transport costs. They are also the shoppers that take free curtain making/carpet laying/tyre fitting or 'GST off sale' promotions at face value. 

Supermarket retailing today is a whole branch of psychology in itself and the average shopper is completely ignorant in the ways they are being manipulated in the shopping environment. Good luck to anyone looking for a simple and straightforward explanation of the price breakdown on that bag of carrots.

[Wainuiguy]

Which means over time tgere will be nk way to show if GST has just been absorbed into the price - which just exactly what experts, including the Minister of Finance, have been saying.  The very reason Grant Robertson poured cold water on the idea in May.

As I alluded to above the pricing of any retail item, and especially fresh produce, has so many components there is no way to attribute price variations to any one factor.

The price on that bag of carrots includes payment to grower (typically as low as 10% of retail price), numerous freight events, packaging, shelf placement (possibly including a charge for premium display location), share of store's lease and heating/refrigeration/cleaning costs, checkout staff input, electronic stock monitoring and inventory registration, payment system commissions, advertising, insurance (premises, stock, public liability), contribution to shoplifting losses and/or spoilt stock and probably dozens of other incidental costs.

The presence of GST in the price is easily identified by the absence of this within the supermarket's accounts (for food items that are deemed exempt) but to the typical shopper all they are looking for is a proportional reduction in cost at the checkout, and many of these shoppers whose depth of expense analysis leads them to regard that filling their car's tank with petrol is the extent of their personal transport costs. They are also the shoppers that take free curtain making/carpet laying/tyre fitting or 'GST off sale' promotions at face value. 

Supermarket retailing today is a whole branch of psychology in itself and the average shopper is completely ignorant in the ways they are being manipulated in the shopping environment. Good luck to anyone looking for a simple and straightforward explanation of the price breakdown on that bag of carrots.

Wow - FOUR paragraphs to say "no way to know if I saved GST"

[harm_less]

As I alluded to above the pricing of any retail item, and especially fresh produce, has so many components there is no way to attribute price variations to any one factor.

The price on that bag of carrots includes payment to grower (typically as low as 10% of retail price), numerous freight events, packaging, shelf placement (possibly including a charge for premium display location), share of store's lease and heating/refrigeration/cleaning costs, checkout staff input, electronic stock monitoring and inventory registration, payment system commissions, advertising, insurance (premises, stock, public liability), contribution to shoplifting losses and/or spoilt stock and probably dozens of other incidental costs.

The presence of GST in the price is easily identified by the absence of this within the supermarket's accounts (for food items that are deemed exempt) but to the typical shopper all they are looking for is a proportional reduction in cost at the checkout, and many of these shoppers whose depth of expense analysis leads them to regard that filling their car's tank with petrol is the extent of their personal transport costs. They are also the shoppers that take free curtain making/carpet laying/tyre fitting or 'GST off sale' promotions at face value. 

Supermarket retailing today is a whole branch of psychology in itself and the average shopper is completely ignorant in the ways they are being manipulated in the shopping environment. Good luck to anyone looking for a simple and straightforward explanation of the price breakdown on that bag of carrots.

Wow - FOUR paragraphs to say "no way to know if I saved GST"

The difference being I explained why rather than just posting unsupported opinions and interjections. You're welcome

[Wainuiguy]

Wow - FOUR paragraphs to say "no way to know if I saved GST"

The difference being I explained why rather than just posting unsupported opinions and interjections. You're welcome

I feel sorry for your keyboard if it takes that many words to say " no way to know if I saved GST".

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Opinions on this have to be based on our own lived experience. I don't buy fruit and veg from my supermarket. He buys in tag 2 produce and drenches it in spray to look good in massive piles and bins. I buy from the fruit guy up the road who selects from the market, carries my bag to the scoot himself, and replaces anything that I might find less than acceptable for free, no questions asked. Personal service. Much better variety. Baby leeks, coloured carrots, and interesting jars of stuff I've never heard of... It is fun to shop in there.

But take off the GST? I'd be even happier. I might buy the occasional bunch of daffs as well..

I'm still not voting Labour though.

[harm_less]

The difference being I explained why rather than just posting unsupported opinions and interjections. You're welcome

I feel sorry for your keyboard if it takes that many words to say " no way to know if I saved GST".

Many of us are here for friendly conversation with a side order of interesting information and clever retorts. If you're more interested in posting along the lines of 'I told you so, so that's the way it is' there are other forums out there that may be more welcoming to that approach.

[Wainuiguy]

I feel sorry for your keyboard if it takes that many words to say " no way to know if I saved GST".

Many of us are here for friendly conversation with a side order of interesting information and clever retorts. If you're more interested in posting along the lines of 'I told you so, so that's the way it is' there are other forums out there that may be more welcoming to that approach.

I am sure there are also forums out there for those unable to admit they are wrong.  Perhaps you could seek those out?

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Opinions on this have to be based on our own lived experience. I don't buy fruit and veg from my supermarket. He buys in tag 2 produce and drenches it in spray to look good in massive piles and bins. I buy from the fruit guy up the road who selects from the market, carries my bag to the scoot himself, and replaces anything that I might find less than acceptable for free, no questions asked. Personal service. Much better variety. Baby leeks, coloured carrots, and interesting jars of stuff I've never heard of... It is fun to shop in there.

But take off the GST? I'd be even happier. I might buy the occasional bunch of daffs as well..

I'm still not voting Labour though.

So his fruit and vegetables stay the same price all the time?  So you would know if he didn't pass on that savings to you?  Without a doubt?  He wouldn't say try to make some more money?

[yousnoozeyoulose]

I love this mixed-up crazy political landscape of ours at the moment...

Labour dropping a tax.
National paying for its roading with "value capture", or in other words, adding a tax.

The Greens will be bulldozing eco-sanctuaries in no time.

Anyway, the GST on fruit/veg policy is all moot, National will be winning the election and systematically destroying the country (or quietly selling it to China) for the next few years so that's something to look forward to.

[harm_less]

Many of us are here for friendly conversation with a side order of interesting information and clever retorts. If you're more interested in posting along the lines of 'I told you so, so that's the way it is' there are other forums out there that may be more welcoming to that approach.

I am sure there are also forums out there for those unable to admit they are wrong.  Perhaps you could seek those out?

If you were able to lose the obnoxious attitude you might realise that I was actually agreeing with your opinion. I was just making the conversation more inviting for others. Lighten up sunshine

[king1]

all other things being equal, most definitely YES - but as you mention earlier, other factors like supply issues and natural disasters affect market prices, all the time to be honest, so expecting the price for some items to be the same week on week is illogical...  The reality is a kilo of Kumera on that day in your scenario would have been 6.30 ish if it was not for the GST free. 

You cannot assert that the GST free but doesn't work and use unrelated market movements due to other factors as the the reason...

Which means over time there will be no way to show if GST has just been absorbed into the price - which just exactly what experts, including the Minister of Finance, have been saying.  The very reason Grant Robertson poured cold water on the idea in May.

Just because you can't show something isn't happening doesn't mean it will,  sellers cannot simply increase there prices at will with no impunity, supply and demand dictates the price, nothing else.  But yes there is bound to be some greedy bastard who thinks they can get away with a price rise at the same time...

[king1]

Opinions on this have to be based on our own lived experience. I don't buy fruit and veg from my supermarket. He buys in tag 2 produce and drenches it in spray to look good in massive piles and bins. I buy from the fruit guy up the road who selects from the market, carries my bag to the scoot himself, and replaces anything that I might find less than acceptable for free, no questions asked. Personal service. Much better variety. Baby leeks, coloured carrots, and interesting jars of stuff I've never heard of... It is fun to shop in there.

But take off the GST? I'd be even happier. I might buy the occasional bunch of daffs as well..

I'm still not voting Labour though.

So his fruit and vegetables stay the same price all the time?  So you would know if he didn't pass on that savings to you?  Without a doubt?  He wouldn't say try to make some more money?

The odd greedy bastard is not a good reason to deny what could be a beneficial policy to the rest of society.

[Praktica]

I think the defensiveness of supporters of the right on this topic shows that they are afraid it might increase labour's vote.

[king1]

I love this mixed-up crazy political landscape of ours at the moment...

Labour dropping a tax.
National paying for its roading with "value capture", or in other words, adding a tax.

The Greens will be bulldozing eco-sanctuaries in no time.

Anyway, the GST on fruit/veg policy is all moot, National will be winning the election and systematically destroying the country (or quietly selling it to China) for the next few years so that's something to look forward to.

oh yes, which will be first? 
 resume oil exploration, open up the mining, immigration floodgates