More famous dead people who'd definitely vote ACT

[king1]

You do understand that dead people are not economically productive? Quite the reverse. People come before economies, simply because economies require people. Preferably healthy happy productive people.

It isn't just penguins that will disappear from vast areas of the planet...

When the economy suffers, so does peoples health and well being.  An economic downturn means less money to spend of healthcare, shorter lifespans (i.e. people dying) due to stress/lower quality living conditions/aforementioned reduced healthcare/poorer diets etc.

"The economy" isn't some bonus extra that we can bother with once we've made sure that everyone is happy and healthy, rather it is at the very center of what allows us to make sure people are provided for.

picture your economy when all the natural disasters we've been having are magnified a 100% or 1000% or more in the future?  Governments will fail therefore infrastructure and support services will fail, insurance companies will go bust, people will lose jobs,  society will break down...  It might not be for a 100 years or so but it will happen.  The planet has to come first... 

Another thought, everyone is online now days so it won't be hard for our future (great) grand children to find out what side everyone was on....

[king1]

Seems appropriate

[dken31]

When the economy suffers, so does peoples health and well being.  An economic downturn means less money to spend of healthcare, shorter lifespans (i.e. people dying) due to stress/lower quality living conditions/aforementioned reduced healthcare/poorer diets etc.

"The economy" isn't some bonus extra that we can bother with once we've made sure that everyone is happy and healthy, rather it is at the very center of what allows us to make sure people are provided for.

picture your economy when all the natural disasters we've been having are magnified a 100% or 1000% or more in the future?  Governments will fail therefore infrastructure and support services will fail, insurance companies will go bust, people will lose jobs,  society will break down...  It might not be for a 100 years or so but it will happen.  The planet has to come first... 

Another thought, everyone is online now days so it won't be hard for our future (great) grand children to find out what side everyone was on....

[Removed: Rule 2A] you imply that I'm advocating to do nothing about climate change and to put the economy above all else.  For the umpteenth time, I have never advocated for the "do nothing" position, and I explicitly stated that "prioritising short-term economic growth too far above all other concerns is dangerous and harmful".

However, I stand by my claim in my first comment in this thread that we (NZ) cannot prevent climate change: it will continue to happen regardless of what we do.  Therefore, all of our efforts should go into adaptation/preparation for the inevitable.  Trying to stop climate change is just pissing in the wind...much like getting many of you on here to follow basic logic it seems!

[harm_less]

'What I'm telling you is' the Spaniards, Greeks, Israelis, Argentinians, Chinese, Indians, Turks, Alaskans, Bulgarians, Brazilians, Italians, Canadians, Aucklanders and Hawkes Bay residents are adapting to climate change events just fine so just carry on with your life as per normal New Zealand. If it all turns pear shaped just bend over and relax to minimise the pain.

[king1]

picture your economy when all the natural disasters we've been having are magnified a 100% or 1000% or more in the future?  Governments will fail therefore infrastructure and support services will fail, insurance companies will go bust, people will lose jobs,  society will break down...  It might not be for a 100 years or so but it will happen.  The planet has to come first... 

Another thought, everyone is online now days so it won't be hard for our future (great) grand children to find out what side everyone was on....

[Removed: Rule 2A] you imply that I'm advocating to do nothing about climate change and to put the economy above all else.  For the umpteenth time, I have never advocated for the "do nothing" position, and I explicitly stated that "prioritising short-term economic growth too far above all other concerns is dangerous and harmful".

However, I stand by my claim in my first comment in this thread that we (NZ) cannot prevent climate change: it will continue to happen regardless of what we do.  Therefore, all of our efforts should go into adaptation/preparation for the inevitable.  Trying to stop climate change is just pissing in the wind...much like getting many of you on here to follow basic logic it seems!

We can start, and make change, and set an example, and other countries just might follow.  We can do something... 
we can also give up before we get started and say it's too difficult

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Actually, human beings invented the various forms of 'economy'. So human beings could invent a better system if they so chose.

People seem to think money is an unchangeable element of nature, it isn't . It is a fiction we all sign up to. We could sign up to a different version, and some have in the form of cryptocurrencies.

Human beings are more important than money, or economies, or any of the other trappings of civilisation. All of which mean very little when your house is burning down and the river on your boundary is rising rapidly. When that's happening all you want is help. Human beings provide that...

Climate change cannot be stopped now, we agree on that reality. But - if the two major contenders for government have clearly stated they intend to wind back the provisions made so far for climate change how can you suggest we are the ones lacking comprehension? We're pissing into the wind?

At least we aren't trying to make a profit from it.

[R2x1]

[Removed: Rule 2A] you imply that I'm advocating to do nothing about climate change and to put the economy above all else.  For the umpteenth time, I have never advocated for the "do nothing" position, and I explicitly stated that "prioritising short-term economic growth too far above all other concerns is dangerous and harmful".

However, I stand by my claim in my first comment in this thread that we (NZ) cannot prevent climate change: it will continue to happen regardless of what we do.  Therefore, all of our efforts should go into adaptation/preparation for the inevitable.  Trying to stop climate change is just pissing in the wind...much like getting many of you on here to follow basic logic it seems!

ROFLMAO.
Thank you for that, it is the best laugh I've had in quite some time.  You are following basic logic as closely as I'm following Archimedes.  I cant see or hear him, but I think he was here, or somewhere, once.

PS, you're testing the tolerance of the Grammar Police too. I don't often hold with those folk, but who knows? I  would sooner giving them my support than ACT.

Thanks for all the jokes.

[Lilith7]

I don't think you realise how serious things are - we have  a choice. Try and have a controlled landing, or do nothing and crash and burn. You also have erected that straw man "ban all farming", which suggest you are not prepared to face the reality of the situation.

I don't think you really comprehended what I wrote.

Firstly, my comment you replied to was talking about an "if its hoax, are mitigation efforts still a net benefit" situation.  I didn't raise that scenario, I was merely replying to it being raised by someone else.  Earlier though, I haven't ever advocated for doing nothing, but I've strongly advocated for putting our efforts into adaptation and coping with the change, rather than trying to prevent the change.  Humans are great at adaptation and survival, whereas thinking we can control the global climate is just King Cnut level stupidity/arrogance.

As for my ban all farming example, the post I was replying to stated that anything we did towards fighting climate change would be a net benefit, even if the whole thing was a hoax.  I used the extreme "ban all farming" to provide a very straight forward example of something we could do to fight climate change that would quite clearly not be of net benefit, thereby clearly disproving the assertion that "anything we do is a step in the right direction".  I wasn't suggesting anyone seriously thinks we should ban all farming, and it wasn't an argument for doing nothing instead.

The only people I've come across who claim that anyone wants to 'ban all farming' are oddly enough those who like to claim that climate change is nonsense & that we should do little or nothing about it.

Doing nothing doesn't really seem to be an option in view of the wild fires during the northern hemisphere summer recently, & I suspect that eventually those still pushing the do nothing barrow might have to change their views if things worsen.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Thing is we have the technology to ban all farming, if we wanted to. Even at this early stage of the tech. But no one is suggesting we do that. Certainly not the political lot who desperately want to avoid all discussion on the subject. Except the looney left that is.

And I don't know how we get the message across that no one thinks we can stop climate change, seems there is determination to stay on that position. We can offset it though, and not speed it up, but once again, the political will isn't there. Except for the aforementioned loons.

Still, going round and round in circles is good exercise. So long as it is solar powered.

[R2x1]

The only people I've come across who claim that anyone wants to 'ban all farming' are oddly enough those who like to claim that climate change is nonsense & that we should do little or nothing about it.

Doing nothing doesn't really seem to be an option in view of the wild fires during the northern hemisphere summer recently, & I suspect that eventually those still pushing the do nothing barrow might have to change their views if things worsen.

The Do-Nothing Barrow should be pretty easy to push - it's all downhill and once they get a bit of speed up, it will be unstoppable.

[Lilith7]

Thing is we have the technology to ban all farming, if we wanted to. Even at this early stage of the tech. But no one is suggesting we do that. Certainly not the political lot who desperately want to avoid all discussion on the subject. Except the looney left that is.

And I don't know how we get the message across that no one thinks we can stop climate change, seems there is determination to stay on that position. We can offset it though, and not speed it up, but once again, the political will isn't there. Except for the aforementioned loons.

Still, going round and round in circles is good exercise. So long as it is solar powered.

It always seems to inevitably come back to the politicians; they're the ones in charge of what becomes of our world because we elected them to positions of power - & that is so deeply scary in these times that it should keep us all awake at night.

And  does sometimes keep me awake.

---

The only people I've come across who claim that anyone wants to 'ban all farming' are oddly enough those who like to claim that climate change is nonsense & that we should do little or nothing about it.

Doing nothing doesn't really seem to be an option in view of the wild fires during the northern hemisphere summer recently, & I suspect that eventually those still pushing the do nothing barrow might have to change their views if things worsen.

The Do-Nothing Barrow should be pretty easy to push - it's all downhill and once they get a bit of speed up, it will be unstoppable.

Too true, it will. And I wonder if the ultra wealthy have already planned their escape - to Mars perhaps.

[harm_less]

Too true, it will. And I wonder if the ultra wealthy have already planned their escape - to Mars perhaps.

With a stint at their $2m+ New Zealand property until such time as the rot also sets in in our part of the planet, thanks to National's invitation.

[Lilith7]

Too true, it will. And I wonder if the ultra wealthy have already planned their escape - to Mars perhaps.

With a stint at their $2m+ New Zealand property until such time as the rot also sets in in our part of the planet, thanks to National's invitation.

Indeed - I find it difficult to credit that so many are willing to vote for them, in view of what they have in store. 

And in view of the fact that politicians tend to be good at keeping schtum on what other little delights there may be hiding up their sleeves there may be very much worse in store, especially if ACT has anything to do with it.

Its worrying for all of us with descendants, to think about the future & its possibilities.

[R2x1]

It is sad to think for the current primary students, these will be the good old days.

[Lilith7]

It is sad to think for the current primary students, these will be the good old days.

That really is a bloody horrible thought, isn't it.

[C_T_Russell]

You know how they are going to fund those tax cuts? By defunding all the climate change work...

Good on them too.
Because all that money they take off us at the pumps gonna save the planet!
Have you seen how much profit the steel mill made last year?
It was like a billion dollars.
They don't need a gift of your hard earned money to convert to electricity, they can afford that 200 million dollars themselves.
Like any of it will save the planet.
National are doing the right thing and giving that money back to you.

[Lilith7]

You know how they are going to fund those tax cuts? By defunding all the climate change work...

Good on them too.
Because all that money they take off us at the pumps gonna save the planet!
Have you seen how much profit the steel mill made last year?
It was like a billion dollars.
They don't need a gift of your hard earned money to convert to electricity, they can afford that 200 million dollars themselves.
Like any of it will save the planet.
National are doing the right thing and giving that money back to you.

Ah fantastic! The usual stance from the right - couldn't give a toss about our descendants, or anyone in the future who'll have to deal with our failure - thanks to the head-in-the-sand stance from many.

[C_T_Russell]

Good on them too.
Because all that money they take off us at the pumps gonna save the planet!
Have you seen how much profit the steel mill made last year?
It was like a billion dollars.
They don't need a gift of your hard earned money to convert to electricity, they can afford that 200 million dollars themselves.
Like any of it will save the planet.
National are doing the right thing and giving that money back to you.

Ah fantastic! The usual stance from the right - couldn't give a toss about our descendants, or anyone in the future who'll have to deal with our failure - thanks to the head-in-the-sand stance from many.

You still don't answer the question, why do these billion dollar corporations need YOUR money in the middle of a coat of living crisis when many kiwis are struggling to pay at the pump?
Secondly, none of it can save the planet, and I'm sure our descendants will have far better technology to address this issue anyway. Likely they will be laughing at us how we all thought that our cars were changing the weather!

[Oh_hunnihunni]

The subsidy results in a huge reduction in emissions.

If only there was such an easy way to reduce those on a more personal and immediate level...

[Lilith7]

Ah fantastic! The usual stance from the right - couldn't give a toss about our descendants, or anyone in the future who'll have to deal with our failure - thanks to the head-in-the-sand stance from many.

You still don't answer the question, why do these billion dollar corporations need YOUR money in the middle of a coat of living crisis when many kiwis are struggling to pay at the pump?
Secondly, none of it can save the planet, and I'm sure our descendants will have far better technology to address this issue anyway. Likely they will be laughing at us how we all thought that our cars were changing the weather!

I wasn't aware there was a question in there.

But there is an answer to your quesiton as to "why do these billion dollar corporations need YOUR money in the middle of a coat of living crisis when many kiwis are struggling to pay at the pump?" & its much the same to the question of why are power bills, rents & groceries so high now.

Greed. Neo Liberalism is based on it...