So THAT'S who that man is!

[Lilith7]

Only discovered who he is accidentally when he featured in this article. The chap often seen in the backgrpund of photos with Luxon is Simeon Brown.
A Baptist, & in view of his backward looking views perhaps not surprsing that he's remained in the background.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politic...luding-evs



This article is about a challenge he faced last year & which he apparently survived. Can't say I like the sound of his particular set of beliefs; very right wing American & anti women.

I'm really starrting to believe that perhaps anyone with such beliefs should be discouraged - or prohibited - from becoming a politician.

https://www.politik.co.nz/taliban-nation...challenge/


"Right-wing National MP Simon O’Connor is now facing a challenge to his re-election.

National Party officials will not reveal the names of the contenders, but one is believed to be Claire Ward, the sister of former Whaleoil blogger Cameron Slater. O’Connor — who is married to Simon Bridges’ sister — is regarded as one of the National caucus’ so-called Taliban of evangelical Christians.
 
A former Catholic seminarian, he is an outspoken opponent of abortion and proudly wears the label of being one of the party’s leading conservatives. ”] represent a, a core conservative constituency of the National Party,” he told POLITIK yesterday“It doesn’t matter if it’s abortion, euthanasia, my strong stance on communist China, free speech, support for Israel; I don’t know which of these or other things that the challengers might be upset about.



But because of Luxon’s own battle with public opinion over his evangelical Christianity, being seen to back O’Connor runs the risk of reviving that debate. It would also run the risk of alienating deputy leader Nicolas Willis, who is widely regarded as a liberal feminist.

But O’Connor is not on his own in the “Taliban” grouping. Other supporters include Pakuranga MP, Simeon Brown; Kaipara ki Mahurangi  MP, Chris Penk and list MPs Melissa Lee and Harete Hipango. However, O’Connor is generally seen as the flag bearer. 

He startled many of his colleagues with a hardline speech opposing the March 2020  Bill to decriminalise abortion. ”This is a bill which the Prime Minister herself is behind,” he said. “I say that once again for the public: this is a bill that the Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, is behind.”

[zqwerty]

We're going backwards in time.

[harm_less]

We're going backwards in time.

Seems ACT are heading in that direction too https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/09/10/build...risis-fix/

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Yup, too many evangelists for my liking.

[Lilith7]

Yup, too many evangelists for my liking.

Its a bit bloody scary given some of their views, especially with regard to women; I'd rather my granddaughters/great granddaughters didn't have to fight the same battles over again. 

You'd think that seeing the disaster which is American politiics at present they migtht have the good sense to question some of the more extreme views & give some more thought to long term consequences.

Also interesting that he was previously Catholic & changed to Baptist.

---

We're going backwards in time.

I think you may have a point there - I do wish you didn't though. I wish wiser - & saner - heads were prevailing on the right wing. And everywhere else as well.

This might be useful for anyone not sure where they stand.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/09/10/vote-...our-views/

[dken31]

"I'm really starrting to believe that perhaps anyone with such beliefs should be discouraged - or prohibited - from becoming a politician."

I'm far more concerned about whether or not my granddaughters/great-grandaughters get to live in a society that protects and values free exchange of ideas. You suggest you'd like people with opposing views to your own to be barred from public office, but can you you not see the danger in that? What happens when the people choosing who can and can't be politicians have different views to you? I'm guessing you'd then want to revert back to open democracy again.

---

Also, Simeon is happily married with several daughters so I reject your claim that he's a women hater. I don't know them/have never met them, however, by all accounts, his wife loves, admires and supports him. Claiming that he's a women hater is rather patronisingly claiming that his wife is either too stupid or brainwashed to know what is good for her. Many women are opposed to current abortion laws, not becaue they hate themselves or are brainwashed, but because they think killing humans at any stage of life for convenience is wrong.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

No woman who has to terminate a pregnancy ever did it for convenience. To describe it as that and in that way shows a total lack of understanding of real life.

In my opinion.

[Zurdo]

I'm sure he's not a woman hater...but going by his religious views, I'm sure his wife knows her place in life.

[Lilith7]

"I'm really starrting to believe that perhaps anyone with such beliefs should be discouraged - or prohibited - from becoming a politician."

I'm far more concerned about whether or not my granddaughters/great-grandaughters get to live in a society that protects and values free exchange of ideas.  You suggest you'd like people with opposing views to your own to be barred from public office, but can you you not see the danger in that? What happens when the people choosing who can and can't be politicians have different views to you? I'm guessing you'd then want to revert back to open democracy again.

---

Also, Simeon is happily married with several daughters so I reject your claim that he's a women hater. I don't know them/have never met them, however, by all accounts, his wife loves, admires and supports him.  Claiming that he's a women hater is rather patronisingly claiming that his wife is either too stupid or brainwashed to know what is good for her.  Many women are opposed to current abortion laws, not becaue they hate themselves or are brainwashed, but because they think killing humans at any stage of life for convenience is wrong.

I said anti women rather than hating women, since that is exactly what I meant rather than what you decided I meant. Not quite the same thing. Nor did I say, or in any way mean, that his wife is 'stupid or brainwashed' - if I'd meant that then I'd have said so.


His being happily married is no doubt,lovely for him but irrelevent since his ideas apply to, & would, if he could, apply to all women,regardless of their circumstances.

As it happens I'm very much in favour of a free exchange of ideas, its very much what democracy is about. Rather than imposing one's bellief system on others simply because it somehow makes sense to the person with the power to do the imposing.


No one is ever forced to undergo an unwanted abortion, which is as it should be. 

And  NOR should anyone be forced to continue with an unwanted pregnancy, due to someone elses's religious beliefs

[Oh_hunnihunni]

It is part of the ideology that seeks to control women. Frankly, if as a woman you don't support abortion, then don't have one. They aren't compulsory. And if as a man, you don't want women having them, then don't inseminate them. Pretty simple really.

Anything else is about controlling other people, good luck with that.

[Lilith7]

It is part of the ideology that seeks to control women. Frankly, if as a woman you don't support abortion, then don't have one. They aren't compulsory. And if as a man, you don't want women having them, then don't inseminate them. Pretty simple really.

Anything else is about controlling other people, good luck with that.

Yes that is really what its about - controlling people. And its easier to control women if their body autonomy is removed.

And some states in USA now have even gone to the extreme of not allowing abortion even if that means the mother will almost certainly die - which makes very clear that its about power & control.

[dken31]

You both imply that laws created to control people are wrong, when we have many laws that control people's behaviour that, I'm guessing, you're fine with. I'm sure there are some men that think women should be controlled by men (e.g. Gloriavale) however they're a pretty small minority. The vast majority of people that oppose most abortions do so because they believe that an abortion kills a human being. Therefore, prohibiting abortion is no more "controlling people" than prohibiting murder. That is why many, many women also oppose abortion; not because they "know their place" or "are under the control of a man" but because they believe that abortion kills a human life.

[girlgeorgina]

if abortion is prohibited like it is in the states, that is control. if you are a victim of rape, incest, have limited capacities, you cannot abort. you must carry to term the baby you had no choice in conceiving.
if your fetus develops an issue that means they will die soon after birth, you must carry them for the duration, only to watch them suffer and ultimately die very quickly.

one of my brothers ex partners had multiple children to multiple fathers. she had custody of none of them and was pregnant a 6th time. thankfully, she saw sense and aborted that one. would that have been better off being born to a woman with no maternal instinct or any idea how to be a semi-decent mother? someone who men and her p habit ahead of everything else?

there is a time and a place for abortion, and to say otherwise is all about control.

[king1]

ahhh abortion, nothing is more polarising...

some interesting stats on the matter from the US...
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fac...-abortion/

What I found interesting was the age factor - seems the older you are the more likely you are to agree with abortions being illegal in most cases
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fac...y-age-2022

The next one on education level is telling as well

[Oh_hunnihunni]

You both imply that laws created to control people are wrong, when we have many laws that control people's behaviour that, I'm guessing, you're fine with.  I'm sure there are some men that think women should be controlled by men (e.g. Gloriavale) however they're a pretty small minority.  The vast majority of people that oppose most abortions do so because they believe that an abortion kills a human being.  Therefore, prohibiting abortion is no more "controlling people" than prohibiting murder.  That is why many, many women also oppose abortion; not because they "know their place" or "are under the control of a man" but because they believe that abortion kills a human life.

The thing is thought, where are the same laws applying to men? Who is legislating to force their fertility to have a living outcome? Why are the laws not protectiing women from the unwelcome outcomes of sexual assault? Of incest? Of unfortunate genetic and medical events?

Some of which are directly down to male aggression?

Laws against murder apply to living people. Laws against abortion are about controlling women who wish the products of an unwelcome conception be removed from their bodies...

Very different issues.

---

ahhh abortion, nothing is more polarising...

some interesting stats on the matter from the US...
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fac...-abortion/

What I found interesting was the age factor - seems the older you are the more likely you are to agree with abortions being illegal in most cases
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fac...y-age-2022

The next one on education level is telling as well

Yes, which is yet another very telling point regarding the controlling of higher education...

[Kenj]

And me, I don't really have an opinion on abortion. The only opinion I have is that men should have no say in the matter, especially in law making. Total should be completely left to women to legislate and control.

Crazy example recently in the great old US of A where a 10yr old girl was raped. The law said she had to have the baby and then. How effing ridiculous is that? I believe she went to another state to have the abortion. They should hang the rapist up by his goolies until they drop off.

[Lilith7]

You both imply that laws created to control people are wrong, when we have many laws that control people's behaviour that, I'm guessing, you're fine with.  I'm sure there are some men that think women should be controlled by men (e.g. Gloriavale) however they're a pretty small minority.  The vast majority of people that oppose most abortions do so because they believe that an abortion kills a human being.  Therefore, prohibiting abortion is no more "controlling people" than prohibiting murder.  That is why many, many women also oppose abortion; not because they "know their place" or "are under the control of a man" but because they believe that abortion kills a human life.

"You both imply that laws created to control people are wrong, when we have many laws that control people's behaviour that, I'm guessing, you're fine with." 


THAT is a gigantic leap of supposition to make - & wrong...which you surely must know.

The control aspect is as I said, a big part of some religions in particular some sects within the Abrahamic religions. Deciding what someone can or cannot do with their body when that is going to affect the rest their life is a very effective type of control. 


The women who oppose abortion NEVER have tio have one; because NO ONE wants to force a decision on them that:
1) They find abhorrent, &
2)Which will affect the rest of their lives.

And AFAIK, a grand total of NO ONE who is in favour of abortion has a problen with that, because it would be unfair & unreasonable to oblige those women to do something they're opposed to. 
Yet those opposed to abortion can't manage to comprehend that, often because of their religious beliefs, which they think everyone else should be compelled to live by.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

And me, I don't really have an opinion on abortion. The only opinion I have is that men should have no say in the matter, especially in law making. Total should be completely left to women to legislate and control.

Crazy example recently in the great old US of A where a 10yr old girl was raped. The law said she had to have the baby and then. How effing ridiculous is that? I believe she went to another state to have the abortion. They should hang the rapist up by his goolies until they drop off.

Heavens! All this agreeing business has to stop or I'll start thinking you might be a secret Green voter... 

[Kenj]

And me, I don't really have an opinion on abortion. The only opinion I have is that men should have no say in the matter, especially in law making. Total should be completely left to women to legislate and control.

Crazy example recently in the great old US of A where a 10yr old girl was raped. The law said she had to have the baby and then. How effing ridiculous is that? I believe she went to another state to have the abortion. They should hang the rapist up by his goolies until they drop off.

Heavens! All this agreeing business has to stop or I'll start thinking you might be a secret Green voter... 

That is what the problem is! Politics should have nothing to do with this matter. Be you green ,pink, red or blue.

[Lilith7]

Heavens! All this agreeing business has to stop or I'll start thinking you might be a secret Green voter... 

That is what the problem is! Politics should have nothing to do with this matter. Be you green ,pink, red or blue.

Exactly.