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Gaza, US uses veto
#1
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67664804



[b]"UN secretary general António Guterres spoke this afternoon about the "serious risk to the maintenance of international peace and security", citing the spillover of hostilities in "the occupied West Bank, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Yemen".[/b]
He triggered Article 99, prompting Friday's UN Security Council vote, because he believes this is a very urgent matter which must be brought to the attention of the council.
The Israeli government detests the UN and they detest the secretary general.


There was, Mr Guterres said, a high risk of the "total collapse of the humanitarian support system in Gaza". And the Palestinians say that is exactly what Israel wants because it wants to get all Palestinians out of Gaza.

Journalists are not permitted by Israel to enter Gaza so I can't report from there myself, but what the secretary general is saying sounds pretty accurate from the pictures and video we can see and the people we speak to.
By all the measures you can think of, the situation there for civilians is absolutely catastrophic, as they are subjected to a remorseless military campaign. Israel says they are doing what they can to save civilian lives but insists Hamas holds responsibility for using them as human shields.

At the UN, the Americans duly vetoed this resolution calling for a ceasefire. For those concerned about the significant loss of life, that does sound a bit hollow - the Americans claim the Israelis are saying they will stick to the rules of war and avoid unnecessary civilian deaths. But, they say, there is a gap between what Israel says and what it does.
I think the strategy behind the secretary general's decision to bring a vote - which he knew would probably get vetoed - was to hurry up the inevitable moment when the Americans will say to Israel: "Enough is enough, you've had enough time and killed enough people and it's time for a ceasefire."


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67664854



[b]"The armed wing of Hamas has released a video which it says shows the bloody aftermath of a failed Israeli operation to free an Israeli hostage.[/b]
In the footage, a man says he has been held for 40 days, suggesting the video may have been recorded in mid-November.
A lot of blood is seen on a tiled floor, as well as military equipment, which Hamas claims to have captured.
The video ends with gruesome images of a bloodied body that appears to be that of the same hostage seen earlier.
We are withholding the man's name - he says this and his age in the video.
A script in Arabic says that Israeli soldiers "failed to reach" the hostage, leading to his death, and that the Israeli team "quickly fled the place".

It claims that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) used an ambulance to reach the place where the hostage was being held."




https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67666270



[b]"A 22-year-old Palestinian has told the BBC how he was detained with dozens of others by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in northern Gaza on Thursday.[/b]
Footage verified by the BBC shows a group of men stripped to their underwear, kneeling on the ground and being guarded by Israeli soldiers.
The man says he was forced to sit in the street for hours, handcuffed and blindfolded, before being driven away.
An Israeli official said the soldiers were searching for Hamas members.
Mark Regev, a senior adviser to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, told the BBC they were looking for those "responsible for the massacre of October 7".
The detainees were taken by truck from Beit Lahia in northern Gaza to an unknown place, according to the young man - who asked to remain anonymous for his safety.


One image - which has not yet been verified by the BBC - shows men blindfolded, kneeling in what appears to be a large pit of bulldozed sand.
The 22-year-old says the place that he, his father, brother and five cousins were taken to was sandy - and they were left there almost naked but given a blanket at night.
After questioning, he says he was taken to another location before being told to go home, arriving at around 01:40 in the morning.
"They released all of us, except my father and eldest cousin. My father works for UNRWA. I don't know why they took him," he said.

UNRWA is the UN agency that supports Palestinian refugees.

One of the detained men, Diaa al-Kahlout - who has not been released yet, according to a colleague - is a correspondent for The New Arab, or Al-Araby Al-Jadeed, a London-based pan-Arab outlet.
Some of those later released told al-Kahlout's family that the journalist had been transferred to Zikim military base in Israel, according to Lamis Andoni of The New Arab."
in order to be old & wise, you must first be young & stupid. (I'm still working on that.)
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#2
Not surprising given how much the US backs Israel.
Russia used their veto powers against Ukraine too.
I really wonder what's the whole point of the UN when the two main superpowers can just veto anything they disagree with.
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#3
Bastards.
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#4
The Fog of War.
It's not the least charm of a theory that it is refutable. The hundred-times-refuted theory of "free will" owes its persistence to this charm alone; some one is always appearing who feels himself strong enough to refute it - Friedrich Nietzsche
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#5
(09-12-2023, 07:20 PM)nzoomed Wrote: Not surprising given how much the US backs Israel.
Russia used their veto powers against Ukraine too.
I really wonder what's the whole point of the UN when the two main superpowers can just veto anything they disagree with.

Yes - it does seem to be pointless when things can be just stopped in this way.
We really are idiots sometimes.

I'd almost like to see the Israeli govt (those in favour of what's happening) sent to compete with the Hamas leaders in a house building competition (under supervision by prefessionals) because then whoever wins or loses, at least some good might come out of it.
Humans are idiots...
in order to be old & wise, you must first be young & stupid. (I'm still working on that.)
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#6
The Israelis are in their promised land and they will hold onto it at all costs, don't forget they have nuclear weapons as does Iran.
It's not the least charm of a theory that it is refutable. The hundred-times-refuted theory of "free will" owes its persistence to this charm alone; some one is always appearing who feels himself strong enough to refute it - Friedrich Nietzsche
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#7
From a Reddit post:

“Those people made war on us, defied and dared us to come south to their country, where they boasted they would kill us and do all manner of horrible things. We accepted their challenge, and now for them to whine and complain of the natural and necessary results is beneath contempt.”

"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen and I say let us give them all they want." - William T Sherman

https://old.reddit.com/r/ShermanPosting/..._dared_us/
It's not the least charm of a theory that it is refutable. The hundred-times-refuted theory of "free will" owes its persistence to this charm alone; some one is always appearing who feels himself strong enough to refute it - Friedrich Nietzsche
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#8
The fact that Israel has nukes is deeply concerning, Netanyahu appears to be ruthless enough that he might consider using them. But surely wiser heads will prevail because to use them would also endanger Israelis.

The UN should immediately push for a permanent ceasefire; that is the very least they should do. I'd like to see both the Israeli govt & Hamas leaders removed from power & peace groups with both Isrelis & Palestinians directed to set up a workable, peaceful solution.
in order to be old & wise, you must first be young & stupid. (I'm still working on that.)
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#9
(11-12-2023, 09:51 AM)Lilith7 Wrote: The fact that Israel has nukes is deeply concerning, Netanyahu appears to be ruthless enough that he might consider using them. But surely wiser heads will prevail because to use them would also endanger Israelis.

The UN should immediatley push for a permanent ceasefire; that is the very least they should do. I'd like to see both the Israeli govt & Hamas leaders removed from power & peace groups with both Isrelis & Palestinians directed to set up a workable, peaceful solution.

Good point, ive totally overlooked they have nukes, bit foolish that hamas would attack a nuclear state.
But on the other hand, Israel probably isint too keen on using nukes right on their back doorstep, and hamas likely know that.
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#10
(11-12-2023, 10:12 AM)nzoomed Wrote:
(11-12-2023, 09:51 AM)Lilith7 Wrote: The fact that Israel has nukes is deeply concerning, Netanyahu appears to be ruthless enough that he might consider using them. But surely wiser heads will prevail because to use them would also endanger Israelis.

The UN should immediatley push for a permanent ceasefire; that is the very least they should do. I'd like to see both the Israeli govt & Hamas leaders removed from power & peace groups with both Isrelis & Palestinians directed to set up a workable, peaceful solution.

Good point, ive totally overlooked they have nukes, bit foolish that hamas would attack a nuclear state.
But on the other hand, Israel probably isint too keen on using nukes right on their back doorstep, and hamas likely know that.

Yes no doubt they'll know that & you'd think they'd be slightly more careful in what they do. Taking hostages was never going to help their cause, but on the other hand it just might prevent the use of nukes.
Humans are idiots...
in order to be old & wise, you must first be young & stupid. (I'm still working on that.)
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#11
When policy is being made at that level the loss of a few citizens (hostages) is a small consideration. the possible loss of your homeland to a bunch of virtual savages who will not listen to reason is incentive to pull out all the stops and go down fighting if necessary.

After all if all is lost then one probably will choose to make the biggest impact on the enemy regardless of the cost to all surrounding areas and inhabitants. Israel is nowhere near that point yet but if they don't completely annihilate potential enemies now in the short term then in the long term, say 20 to 30 years, the process will be repeated again.

I think that is why they are being so ruthless now.

The reason US is so supportive of Israel is because there are many Jewish people in powerful influential position in government and elsewhere in US, think of the film industry for instance. Also don't forget that America is all about money and power in the middle east.

The Jewish diaspora has resulted in their people being all over the world and attaining both money and power, they support Israel because it is the Promised Land and thus their homeland and are pragmatic about dealing with threats to that place where-ever they are. I remember the Six Day War and boys in my school were getting ready to head to Israel to fight but of course it turned out not to be necessary as Israel convincingly won that war. The school was in Bulawayo, Rhodesia at the time just after the declaration of U.D.I. when Ian Smith was the Prime Minister and my headmaster was Financial Secretary of the Rhodesian Front also Heavyweight Boxing Champion of Rhodesia, I believe. Remember I was from Zambia and amazed by all the hoo-haa at 16 years old.
It's not the least charm of a theory that it is refutable. The hundred-times-refuted theory of "free will" owes its persistence to this charm alone; some one is always appearing who feels himself strong enough to refute it - Friedrich Nietzsche
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#12
Its quite a difficult situation when you look into it.
Good readup here on how Hamas got into power.
The whole situation is a mess.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023...ction.html
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#13
I can just about recall the six days war, & Israel winning against all odds & various countries. It seemed miraculolus at the time.

There's no question that Hamas are ruthless bastards, or that America is accustomed to meddling in the affairs of other countries when it suits them, or that the Israeli govt is intent on as far as they're able to get away with it, obliterating Gaza.

I can't see it improving if the present govt of Israel & Hamas leadership continue as they are; they don't seem interested in peace, just power.

One of the prisoners released by Israel was loudly expressing his intention on the news to get back to fighting against Israel & was obviously very keen to do so - THAT is the problem, the idiot boys in charge on both sides all fired up with bloodlust & alleged patriotism.

Killing each other's children is not going to bring about peace; instead it will cause pain, bitterness & an urge for revenge. And so it will go, on & on.


Put the grandmothers from both sides in charge - they can hardly do worse!
in order to be old & wise, you must first be young & stupid. (I'm still working on that.)
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#14
Both sides are governed by Old Testament type values, ie eye for an eye tooth for a tooth.

If on the other hand they adhered to New Testament values of turning the other cheek, there could be a chance for peace, alas that will never be.

I like your suggestion of putting the older women in charge Lilith7, lets just hope they have no Margaret Thatcher or Golda Meir types among them.
It's not the least charm of a theory that it is refutable. The hundred-times-refuted theory of "free will" owes its persistence to this charm alone; some one is always appearing who feels himself strong enough to refute it - Friedrich Nietzsche
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#15
(11-12-2023, 02:57 PM)zqwerty Wrote: Both sides are governed by Old Testament type values, ie eye for an eye tooth for a tooth.

If on the other hand they adhered to New Testament values of turning the other cheek, there could be a chance for peace, alas that will never be.

I like your suggestion of putting the older women in charge Lilith7, lets just hope they have no Margaret Thatcher or Golda Meir types among them.

Yep that would defeat the purpose, perhaps better to have only those women who genuinely want peace.

Israel claims it made Palestinians suspected of being Hamas strip to their undies because they were concerned about explosive belts - fair enough but they do themselves no favours when they could have allowed them to put their clothes back on before filming them because it now looks very much like a deliberate ploy to humiliate them. They could have said what they'd done & shown them clothed without a problem but they deliberately chose not to.
in order to be old & wise, you must first be young & stupid. (I'm still working on that.)
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#16
All the Jewish people I have known, and that is quite a few in my travels, have all been scathing, highly intelligent, rigid thinkers, with an eye for the main chance, not tolerant of other peoples weaknesses, and not kindly.
It's not the least charm of a theory that it is refutable. The hundred-times-refuted theory of "free will" owes its persistence to this charm alone; some one is always appearing who feels himself strong enough to refute it - Friedrich Nietzsche
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#17
I think Israel's main problem is its right wing govt. There's no shortsge of those opposed to it from what I've read but it seems those who support it have a majority, so little chance of getting them out.
in order to be old & wise, you must first be young & stupid. (I'm still working on that.)
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