Solar farming

[harm_less]

An interesting discussion is taking place in South Taranaki regarding the development of utility scale solar generation facilities. Basing their arguments on the historical remuneration agreements for oil developments that were shortsighted and biased towards the fossil fuel companies seems to be an inappropriate model to base solar developments on.

I can sympathise with the claims that bushland and wetlands will be affected by these projects but the loss of dairying income has to be put alongside the potential income stream and downstream development opportunities that a significant electricity source presents.

A background factor that isn't mentioned in this report is that the relatively uniformity of topography of South Taranaki's volcanic ring plain lends itself well to development of such projects and whereas dairying capitalises on the fertility of the volcanic soils these projects do so with the benign topography, and without the often criticised environmental impacts of intensive dairy farming. Obviously the STDC members will have strong connections within the dairy industry so this will influence their opinions on any competing activities on their patch.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/climate-change/3...re-profits

[nzoomed]

If done right, it has huge potential.
You can still farm stock around the solar panels if enough spacing is provided, they also give the animals shade, one downside would be the inability to make hay from the area i guess, but its a win win if you can still use the land for farming.
NZ doesnt have as much wasteland as some countries, but see what China is doing in their desert, they are building huge solar farms there which I believe are already the worlds biggest, was just watching a video about this yesterday. Its quite impressive what China is able to do.
Australia would lend very well to solar in their outback and they have quite an energy crisis on their hands, very reliant on coal. There is some talk about them going Nuclear as they have one of the worlds largest uranium reserves and they export it all over the globe.

[Lilith7]

If done right, it has huge potential.
You can still farm stock around the solar panels if enough spacing is provided, they also give the animals shade, one downside would be the inability to make hay from the area i guess, but its a win win if you can still use the land for farming.
NZ doesnt have as much wasteland as some countries, but see what China is doing in their desert, they are building huge solar farms there which I believe are already the worlds biggest, was just watching a video about this yesterday. Its quite impressive what China is able to do.
Australia would lend very well to solar in their outback and they have quite an energy crisis on their hands, very reliant on coal. There is some talk about them going Nuclear as they have one of the worlds largest uranium reserves and they export it all over the globe.

Defnitely an interesting idea, & you're right about Oz, they really should be doing likewise. Every country which can, should.

[zqwerty]

Germany Now Has So Much Solar Power That Its Electric Prices Are Going Negative
Prices have dropped 87 percent — more than a dip.

https://futurism.com/the-byte/germany-so...ric-prices

[harm_less]

Germany Now Has So Much Solar Power That Its Electric Prices Are Going Negative
Prices have dropped 87 percent — more than a dip.

https://futurism.com/the-byte/germany-so...ric-prices

A similiar situation to us personally in not having storage to balance out our non-generating times. 

Today was partly cloudy but we still generated >26kWh which we mostly used to charge our EV, plus running our home during daylight hours. If we had a home battery, or preferably the ability to draw back down from our EV using V2H, we would have comfortably enough stored to run our home for the night.

In NZ's case we already have a huge buffering capacity to complement solar and wind generation in the form of our hydro dams. Managed responsibly the nation's total hydro dam reserves are sufficient to carry consumption through the intermittence of solar and wind generation, but the problem is a national generation structure that pits the generators against the best economics for their domestic consumers.

The situation will change in consumers' favour in the coming years as domestic solar with home storage capacity tips the scales against the genretailers' monopolistic practices. In the UK Octopus Energy has a customer plan that uses remote control of their customers' consumption to best benefit from the ups and downs of the wholesale electricity price movements with some customers being paid to charge their EVs. Octopus have plans to implement a similar plan in New Zealand but are currently being thwarted by our electricity supply regulatory platform (second half of the following video).

https://thekaka.substack.com/p/why-we-al...dium=video

[harm_less]

Having just read this Twitter thread on the European solar issue the problem is essentially that a flat rate export tariff for domestic solar gen-sumers actually incentivises them to export whenever they have generation occurring. This forces the grid into a 'must buy' situation despite the electricity being excess to requirements at that time, and that grid excess results in negative price points.

The variable import and export system that Octopus offers in the UK is well suited to correct such a situation by incentivising their customers into exporting at times of greater demand, including by way of batteries or V2G connections. Octopus have recently offered a stepped export rate for their NZ customers but this requires a customer to have battery storage to be able to benefit from this.

Australia's high uptake of domestic solar results in similar over supply issues on sunny days but this has been largely addressed by the lines companies there by having control on domestic installations and throttling them back (totally if need be) to prevent potentially damaging grid loads. They also reduced their nominal grid voltage from 240V to 230V in 2000 in order to provide a safety buffer for their infrastructure. Obviously lines company control of customers generation/export rates also serves as an incentive for home battery installation.

[nzoomed]

Im seriously considering solar, I can fit 5kW on my garage roof, its angled more to the west but gets the sun for a good portion of the day.
The big drawback is how little the grid pay you back, you really need a battery to make up for it.
Sodium ion batteries will be a real gamechanger in this department.
Ive been looking at building a bank out of 18650 batteries from e-bike packs, i can find these easily and cheap but would take a bid to build.

[harm_less]

Im seriously considering solar, I can fit 5kW on my garage roof, its angled more to the west but gets the sun for a good portion of the day.
The big drawback is how little the grid pay you back, you really need a battery to make up for it.
Sodium ion batteries will be a real gamechanger in this department.
Ive been looking at building a bank out of 18650 batteries from e-bike packs, i can find these easily and cheap but would take a bid to build.

IMO your best approach will be to schedule your electricity use to absolutely maximise the amount of your generation that you can use as it is available. This includes incorporating components such as power diverters to control HWC consumption and EV chargers that monitor your outward (exported) electricity flow and direct it to EV charging. The key thing to be aware of is that any generation that you are able to use yourself will offset electricity that you would otherwise be importing at whatever rate applies at that given time. By self consuming generation the value of that electricity essentially becomes full retail (incl. GST) to you which is the highest value possible (excluding by way of gaming the wholesale electricity price structure , which is a whole different conversation). This information on the various suppliers' solar FIT rates is also worth checking out if you haven't already but do be aware of significant fish hooks that can compromise some of the plans' overall viability.

Investing in batteries really ramps up the size of your investment and payback on this is reliant on the differential between your export rate (FIT) and the rate in place when you plan to be drawing down your battery. So far as DIY home battery installation is concerned be aware of the home insurance implications of such a system and also the regulatory hoops that need to be jumped through as it will likely be connected to the grid via your house supply.

I struggle with the pricing of static home battery systems vs. the same capacity (and usually far more) contained within an EV. For example 4x Tesla Powerwalls are around the same price as a Model 3 or Y EV but without the mobility advantage - something suspicious there! An increasing amount of EV manufacturers are now making their vehicles bidirectional charge compatible which is a move in the right direction in regards to V2G or V2H functionality which will render static home batteries a lot less attractive than is the case now. We just have to wait for the required bidirectional EVSEs ('chargers') to become available at a sensible price and for the lines companies to modify their regulatory platform accordingly.

[nzoomed]

Im seriously considering solar, I can fit 5kW on my garage roof, its angled more to the west but gets the sun for a good portion of the day.
The big drawback is how little the grid pay you back, you really need a battery to make up for it.
Sodium ion batteries will be a real gamechanger in this department.
Ive been looking at building a bank out of 18650 batteries from e-bike packs, i can find these easily and cheap but would take a bid to build.

IMO your best approach will be to schedule your electricity use to absolutely maximise the amount of your generation that you can use as it is available. This includes incorporating components such as power diverters to control HWC consumption and EV chargers that monitor your outward (exported) electricity flow and direct it to EV charging. The key thing to be aware of is that any generation that you are able to use yourself will offset electricity that you would otherwise be importing at whatever rate applies at that given time. By self consuming generation the value of that electricity essentially becomes full retail (incl. GST) to you which is the highest value possible (excluding by way of gaming the wholesale electricity price structure , which is a whole different conversation). This information on the various suppliers' solar FIT rates is also worth checking out if you haven't already but do be aware of significant fish hooks that can compromise some of the plans' overall viability.

Investing in batteries really ramps up the size of your investment and payback on this is reliant on the differential between your export rate (FIT) and the rate in place when you plan to be drawing down your battery. So far as DIY home battery installation is concerned be aware of the home insurance implications of such a system and also the regulatory hoops that need to be jumped through as it will likely be connected to the grid via your house supply.

I struggle with the pricing of static home battery systems vs. the same capacity (and usually far more) contained within an EV. For example 4x Tesla Powerwalls are around the same price as a Model 3 or Y EV but without the mobility advantage - something suspicious there! An increasing amount of EV manufacturers are now making their vehicles bidirectional charge compatible which is a move in the right direction in regards to V2G or V2H functionality which will render static home batteries a lot less attractive than is the case now. We just have to wait for the required bidirectional EVSEs ('chargers') to become available at a sensible price and for the lines companies to modify their regulatory platform accordingly.

Ive got a friend whos qualified and does this for his work. He showed me the unit he us using that runs on a hacked nissan leaf battery, its pretty impressive.
The price of wholesale panels has blown me away too.
If you know the right people in the industry, you can make good savings. Also whats helping is the flooded market with panels and batterys from China right now.

[Agent_24]

Im seriously considering solar, I can fit 5kW on my garage roof, its angled more to the west but gets the sun for a good portion of the day.
The big drawback is how little the grid pay you back, you really need a battery to make up for it.
Sodium ion batteries will be a real gamechanger in this department.
Ive been looking at building a bank out of 18650 batteries from e-bike packs, i can find these easily and cheap but would take a bid to build.

After seeing Louis Rossmann's experiences with cheap e-bike batteries, I would NOT want those anywhere near where I sleep...

[harm_less]

Quite timely that this has popped up in my Twitter feed: https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/nsw-...dy-mb2928/
Oh for a government here to actually realise the potential of getting distributed generation onboard for addressing grid demand.

[nzoomed]

Im seriously considering solar, I can fit 5kW on my garage roof, its angled more to the west but gets the sun for a good portion of the day.
The big drawback is how little the grid pay you back, you really need a battery to make up for it.
Sodium ion batteries will be a real gamechanger in this department.
Ive been looking at building a bank out of 18650 batteries from e-bike packs, i can find these easily and cheap but would take a bid to build.

After seeing Louis Rossmann's experiences with cheap e-bike batteries, I would NOT want those anywhere near where I sleep...

Sure, some of those batteries are total crap.
The ones ive pulled apart however are from flagship bike brands and have high quality samsung or panasonic cells inside.
Sure there is a fire risk with any lithium battery, this can be mitigated by managing the charge voltages and keeping the float level down below maximum charge level which also extends the life of the battery.
Lots of ebikes and scooters, etc are moving to lithium iron phosphate chemistry which has a lower fire risk.
In addition to that, I plan to keep the battery in the corner of my garage which is built out of concrete blocks away from any combustible material.
I may end up going with prismitac cells or some rackmount UPS batteries anyway, there are a ton of options out there these days.

Quite timely that this has popped up in my Twitter feed: https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/nsw-...dy-mb2928/
Oh for a government here to actually realise the potential of getting distributed generation onboard for addressing grid demand.

I think the government will be forced to do something, was just watching the news last night and it seems that Transpower will be forced to invest heavily into upgrading the ageing grid infrastructure.
Only problem is the costs that will be passed onto the consumers.
One more incentive to upgrade to solar anyway i guess.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

I cannot understand why Transpower needs more of our money. My power bill clearly shows 70% of the due amount goes on delivery not product. So what exactly have they been doing with that money?

[nzoomed]

I cannot understand why Transpower needs more of our money. My power bill clearly shows 70% of the due amount goes on delivery not product. So what exactly have they been doing with that money?

Good point, the lines companies seem to take quite a high percentage of our power costs.
They also seem to regulate the wholesale prices in each region, seems that more of the money goes towards transmission than the actual generation.
Are shareholders the ones waling away with the profit rather than reinvesting into the grid?

[harm_less]

Quite timely that this has popped up in my Twitter feed: https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/nsw-...dy-mb2928/
Oh for a government here to actually realise the potential of getting distributed generation onboard for addressing grid demand.

I think the government will be forced to do something, was just watching the news last night and it seems that Transpower will be forced to invest heavily into upgrading the ageing grid infrastructure.
Only problem is the costs that will be passed onto the consumers.
One more incentive to upgrade to solar anyway i guess.

What we are seeing here is Transpower signing their own death warrant in incentivising consumers to upgrade their distributed generation installations to the point that they can disconnect from the grid.

Transpower's raising lines/transmission charges impact those of us with our own generation because even though our importation of grid supplied electricity can be minimised or even overtaken by self supply the daily cost of being connected to the grid is draconian and only escaped by earning credit from 'excess' generation to pay these fixed charges. As battery storage gets increasingly cheaper, with V2G looming on the horizon, the strategy of being totally self sufficient becomes increasinly attractive and economically viable.

This scenario is generally referred to as the 'utility death spiral' whereby those consumers that are able to will jump ship to off grid systems while those that are less able to make this economic hurdle will be trapped into paying an ever greater individual burden in maintaining grid infrastructure. Over time more and more power users will escape the continual increase in electricity costs in favour of self supply and so the spiral continues.

The sad thing is that distributed generation and utilisation of domestic storage ability can actually be used to lessen reliance on long distance transmission, as well as upgrading of generation to cope with demand peak situations. A recent interview on Jesse Mulligan's RNZ show of an UIT lecturer led me to think that such strategising isn't even yet on their radar.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

I have just received permission from my landlord to investigate the possibility of having a small solar power generation and battery set up installed on my unit. At my expense of course, but it seems to me to be a sensible move to consider considering I will be here for the foreseeable and power costs are not going to go down.

It should be an interesting exercise, I better go buy a dedicated notebook...

[harm_less]

I have just received permission from my landlord to investigate the possibility of having a small solar power generation and battery set up installed on my unit. At my expense of course, but it seems to me to be a sensible move to consider considering I will be here for the foreseeable and power costs are not going to go down.

It should be an interesting exercise, I better go buy a dedicated notebook...

The advice I offered back in post #8 holds strong. Using your own generation, as it is generated, is the best return you can get from solar. Adding battery storage adds significant capex which in many cases makes the overall system unviable. Devices such as power diverters that monitor power leaving your home (export) and turns the likes of a HWC on or off essentially using it as a 'battery' storing the excess power as heat is referred to as a 'poor man's battery' for good reason.

This online calculator is interesting to compare various potential systems as well as the differences that the various components make in terms of return on investment. 10 years payback is usual these days with additional electricity prices playing in your favour.

This organisation is a good resource for finding installers/suppliers of solar in your area though do some homework in getting first hand recommendations of providers as the industry is running hot and attracting some less than expert tradesmen.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

I am going to have lots of questions...

[harm_less]

I am going to have lots of questions...

You'll also gain a whole new understanding and appreciation of the intricacies of your electricity consumption and when best to use what (i.e. when the sun is shining as much as is practical.) Some good guidelines on the SEANZ site on what to expect.

A skilled installer should be ahead of the game for you in terms of generation capacity and best value components. Just go with whoever you feel has your better interests at heart and isn't trying to extract maximum return from an easy target, which I doubt would get past you. Happy to cast an eye over any proposals or quotes for you.

[nzoomed]

I think the government will be forced to do something, was just watching the news last night and it seems that Transpower will be forced to invest heavily into upgrading the ageing grid infrastructure.
Only problem is the costs that will be passed onto the consumers.
One more incentive to upgrade to solar anyway i guess.

What we are seeing here is Transpower signing their own death warrant in incentivising consumers to upgrade their distributed generation installations to the point that they can disconnect from the grid.

Transpower's raising lines/transmission charges impact those of us with our own generation because even though our importation of grid supplied electricity can be minimised or even overtaken by self supply the daily cost of being connected to the grid is draconian and only escaped by earning credit from 'excess' generation to pay these fixed charges. As battery storage gets increasingly cheaper, with V2G looming on the horizon, the strategy of being totally self sufficient becomes increasinly attractive and economically viable.

This scenario is generally referred to as the 'utility death spiral' whereby those consumers that are able to will jump ship to off grid systems while those that are less able to make this economic hurdle will be trapped into paying an ever greater individual burden in maintaining grid infrastructure. Over time more and more power users will escape the continual increase in electricity costs in favour of self supply and so the spiral continues.

The sad thing is that distributed generation and utilisation of domestic storage ability can actually be used to lessen reliance on long distance transmission, as well as upgrading of generation to cope with demand peak situations. A recent interview on Jesse Mulligan's RNZ show of an UIT lecturer led me to think that such strategising isn't even yet on their radar.

Agreed, from what ive heard about 40% of your power bill goes towards power transmission, I dont know how accurate that is, but if those figures are true, then what on earth are they doing with all our money?
Sounds like its just lining shareholders pockets instead?
As you say, battery costs are coming down increasingly fast, we are at the brink of an energy revolution where we wont be as dependent on the power companies to supply us energy and that should help lower the cost of living for many in the years to come.

I watch alot on the electric viking youtube channel, he has recently covered this in great detail, things to watch for are the price of batteries and solar panels over the next 5 years, as it stands the suppliers are selling them at quite a huge markup, but that could soon change.