Treaty Principals Bill

[C_T_Russell]

Not even sure whats so divisive about it, there is nothing in this bill that takes away rights from anyone.
If anything, it should be a good thing for Maori, as it for once will recognize the treaty at face value, rather than many of its many interpretations to suit different agendas over the years.
The treaty ensures equal treatment for everybody and thats what the point is of this bill.

ACT have now created a new website to address the concerns, due to the media spreading misinformation.

You can check it out here at www.treaty.nz

[Praktica]

So - are these primary school principals? Secondary school principals? We should be told.

And I skim read your last sentence as "ACT have set up a website to spread misinformation"!

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Always nice to see honesty from unapologetic sceptics, lol...

---

Not even sure whats so divisive about it, there is nothing in this bill that takes away rights from anyone.
If anything, it should be a good thing for Maori, as it for once will recognize the treaty at face value, rather than many of its many interpretations to suit different agendas over the years.
The treaty ensures equal treatment for everybody and thats what the point is of this bill.

ACT have now created a new website to address the concerns, due to the media spreading misinformation.

You can check it out here at www.treaty.nz

The idea that a bunch of politicians can redefine the terms of an ancient document that founded this nation doesn't bother you at all? What other history would you like rewritten, universal sufferage maybe? Child labour law?

After all, if fair pay legislation - you know, the stuff about paying people fairly - can be chucked out by politicians, I guess anything is fair game...

[Lilith7]

Not even sure whats so divisive about it, there is nothing in this bill that takes away rights from anyone.
If anything, it should be a good thing for Maori, as it for once will recognize the treaty at face value, rather than many of its many interpretations to suit different agendas over the years.
The treaty ensures equal treatment for everybody and thats what the point is of this bill.

ACT have now created a new website to address the concerns, due to the media spreading misinformation.

You can check it out here at www.treaty.nz

Principles...recognise...


That aside, can you seriously NOT comprehend that if anyone has an 'agenda'' it's this bunch of ruthless, empathy-free, greed blinded bastard politicians?

 HOW exactly can anyone miss that, when they're scarcely bothering to disguise their aim to split the entire country & disadvantage Maori & low income people as much as possible? 

Setting up a site 'to address concerns' reeks of propaganda - the sort of thing communist regimes are apt to try to use to spread disinformation.

[zqwerty]

These people will take the shirt off your back and smile while they do it.

[Lilith7]

These people will take the shirt off your back and smile while they do it.

"But first you must learn how to smile as you kill, if you want to be like the folks on the hill."

Working class hero, John Lennon.

[Wainuiguy]

Always nice to see honesty from unapologetic sceptics, lol...

---

Not even sure whats so divisive about it, there is nothing in this bill that takes away rights from anyone.
If anything, it should be a good thing for Maori, as it for once will recognize the treaty at face value, rather than many of its many interpretations to suit different agendas over the years.
The treaty ensures equal treatment for everybody and thats what the point is of this bill.

ACT have now created a new website to address the concerns, due to the media spreading misinformation.

You can check it out here at www.treaty.nz

The idea that a bunch of politicians can redefine the terms of an ancient document that founded this nation doesn't bother you at all? What other history would you like rewritten, universal sufferage maybe? Child labour law?

After all, if fair pay legislation - you know, the stuff about paying people fairly - can be chucked out by politicians, I guess anything is fair game...

Can you confirm how many fair pay agreements were implemented by the last government?  You know, the ones that bought it in?

The treaty has already been redefined over and over.  The idea of "partnership" wasn't bought in until the 1970s.  To suggest that the Crown in 1840s were signing up to a partnership at the apex of the Britsh Empire is frankly ridiculous. Moari say they didn't ceade sovereignty to the Crown except by becoming under the protection of the British Empire to be equal to a Britsh Citizen then that's exactly what they did.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

A treaty is by its nature a partnership. In the 1840s the Crown were the less powerful partner, terrified of inroads and advances being made to Maori by other parties, foreign interests. Those with royal influence were investing heavily in colonisation schemes, they had the ear of the Crown and if you do your homework - rather than giving me assignments, you would soon discover the moral and ethical standing of those players was anything but upright. They had one motivation and only one, the accumulation of personal wealth. (Some of the scams they were running would make 21st C conmen blush).

The people they were treating with had other motivations in addition to that same greed. They weren't fools. They were sophisticated in the ways of trade and negotiation, and to even consider they would cede sovereignty is to seriously underestimate their political cunning.

But then, people still do that. A lot.

[C_T_Russell]

Always nice to see honesty from unapologetic sceptics, lol...

---

Not even sure whats so divisive about it, there is nothing in this bill that takes away rights from anyone.
If anything, it should be a good thing for Maori, as it for once will recognize the treaty at face value, rather than many of its many interpretations to suit different agendas over the years.
The treaty ensures equal treatment for everybody and thats what the point is of this bill.

ACT have now created a new website to address the concerns, due to the media spreading misinformation.

You can check it out here at www.treaty.nz

The idea that a bunch of politicians can redefine the terms of an ancient document that founded this nation doesn't bother you at all? What other history would you like rewritten, universal sufferage maybe? Child labour law?

After all, if fair pay legislation - you know, the stuff about paying people fairly - can be chucked out by politicians, I guess anything is fair game...

That's the whole point of this bill.
The treaty has been rewritten over the years and now we face issues where you receive special benefits if you are "maori"
So if your, great,great,great,great grandfather was maori or part maori, you get handouts.
Welfare should be based on need, not race.

If you identify as maori, you can get free school uniforms and dental care, etc while a pakeha family can't who is in more genuine need for example, how is any of that fair?

[king1]

Always nice to see honesty from unapologetic sceptics, lol...

---

The idea that a bunch of politicians can redefine the terms of an ancient document that founded this nation doesn't bother you at all? What other history would you like rewritten, universal sufferage maybe? Child labour law?

After all, if fair pay legislation - you know, the stuff about paying people fairly - can be chucked out by politicians, I guess anything is fair game...

That's the whole point of this bill.
The treaty has been rewritten over the years and now we face issues where you receive special benefits if you are "maori"
So if your, great,great,great,great grandfather was maori or part maori, you get handouts.
Welfare should be based on need, not race.

If you identify as maori, you can get free school uniforms and dental care, etc while a pakeha family can't who is in more genuine need for example, how is any of that fair?

you're examples are completely inaccurate 

school uniforms - nothing about race mentioned here, seems to be more about genuine need 
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/eligib...onery.html

as for dental care it has always been free for all kids up to 18 years of late, above that, well I see just as many if not more Maori with bad teeth than I do Pakeha, so that claim doesn't stack up either.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

What complete balderdash. Children get free dental care in this country no matter what their ethnicity, up to the age of 18. If their parent(s) bother to get it for them. And, if you ask any dentist you will be told ethnicity doesn't stop tooth decay. Poor diet impacts, and that can be down to poverty, poor education, or simply bad parenting. Free school uniforms are also not limited to specific ethnicity. Our local Catholic school is in a very high decile, predominantly white, blue voting suburb and it offers free uniforms to any who need it, no questions asked. WINZ also provides funding for schooling expenses at the start of each year, not limited to any ethnicity.

There are very few benefits to being born Maori. That is why so many still deny or quietly ignore their heritage. It is changing, as te reo and the culture are reignited by some strong passionate voices - but the old denials, the old fears, still generate crap like this.

My daughter is Maori. I am not. I know the reality of ethicities in this country. It disgusts me to see posts like this pack of rubbish repeatedly made on this forum, under the guise of being anti racist. In reality it betrays a deep seated jealousy of others, a real dog in the manger attitude whereby anyone suspected of getting something the poster can't or didn't becomes a target.

Grow up. Smell the coffee. Focus on your own blessings and stop trying to limit those granted to others. Trust me, it's no skin off your nose to let others gather strength in our community after generations of having it stolen from them. It can only makes us all into a stronger, healthier, happier multiethnic nation out here on the edge of the Pacific.

[zqwerty]

Well said Oh_hunnihunni.

[Lilith7]

What complete balderdash. Children get free dental care in this country no matter what their ethnicity, up to the age of 18. If their parent(s) bother to get it for them. And, if you ask any dentist you will be told ethnicity doesn't stop tooth decay. Poor diet impacts, and that can be down to poverty, poor education, or simply bad parenting. Free school uniforms are also not limited to specific ethnicity. Our local Catholic school is in a very high decile, predominantly white, blue voting suburb and it offers free uniforms to any who need it, no questions asked. WINZ also provides funding for schooling expenses at the start of each year, not limited to any ethnicity.

There are very few benefits to being born Maori. That is why so many still deny or quietly ignore their heritage. It is changing, as te reo and the culture are reignited by some strong passionate voices - but the old denials, the old fears, still generate crap like this.

My daughter is Maori. I am not. I know the reality of ethicities in this country. It disgusts me to see posts like this pack of rubbish repeatedly made on this forum, under the guise of being anti racist. In reality it betrays a deep seated jealousy of others, a real dog in the manger attitude whereby anyone suspected of getting something the poster can't or didn't becomes a target.

Grow up. Smell the coffee. Focus on your own blessings and stop trying to limit those granted to others. Trust me, it's no skin off your nose to let others gather strength in our community after generations of having it stolen from them. It can only makes us all into a stronger, healthier, happier multiethnic nation out here on the edge of the Pacific.

Absolutely agree, well said. That there's still such ignoirance is astounding, & should be to our shame. Education is sorely needed.

[Olive]

Yes, well said Hunni. CT seems to have swallowed whole the balderdash being spread around by Hobson's Choice and, less directly, Atlas Network. And yes, such ignorance is shaming.

[C_T_Russell]

That's the whole point of this bill.
The treaty has been rewritten over the years and now we face issues where you receive special benefits if you are "maori"
So if your, great,great,great,great grandfather was maori or part maori, you get handouts.
Welfare should be based on need, not race.

If you identify as maori, you can get free school uniforms and dental care, etc while a pakeha family can't who is in more genuine need for example, how is any of that fair?

you're examples are completely inaccurate 

school uniforms - nothing about race mentioned here, seems to be more about genuine need 
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/eligib...onery.html

as for dental care it has always been free for all kids up to 18 years of late, above that, well I see just as many if not more Maori with bad teeth than I do Pakeha, so that claim doesn't stack up either.

Well ive got a friend who is maori and thats what they told me, they said they have a maori dental clinic they go to and get free treatment as adults. I will check with them about how the uniforms work, but thats what they told me, and ive heard it from others.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

You have a friend who told you... good heavens, google it. Get the actual truth and stop believing crap.

The Jesuits say 'give us a boy till the age of seven, and we will show you the man'. Sometimes we need to seek education in order to overcome the suspect conditioning of our youth. Or, we can continue to look for ways to reinforce it, and stay ignorant.

It is a choice.

[C_T_Russell]

You have a friend who told you... good heavens, google it. Get the actual truth and stop believing crap.

The Jesuits say 'give us a boy till the age of seven, and we will show you the man'. Sometimes we need to seek education in order to overcome the suspect conditioning of our youth. Or, we can continue to look for ways to reinforce it, and stay ignorant.

It is a choice.

Is it crap?
Why are NZF and ACT campaigning against all this if its a fabricated thing? What are the maori so unhappy about that they are protesting against it?
Are they worried about loosing more handouts?

Either way, my friends tell me its real, and take advantage of these services, so it must be a thing, thinking about it, i have seen such clinics when driving about.
Dental care should be free or heavily subsidized anyway. Could easily be done if the govt didnt blow money elsewhere.
A sugar tax on fizzy drinks would easily fund it, i wouldnt have an issue with that if it meant free dental care for everybody.

[king1]

you're examples are completely inaccurate 

school uniforms - nothing about race mentioned here, seems to be more about genuine need 
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/eligib...onery.html

as for dental care it has always been free for all kids up to 18 years of late, above that, well I see just as many if not more Maori with bad teeth than I do Pakeha, so that claim doesn't stack up either.

Well ive got a friend who is maori and thats what they told me, they said they have a maori dental clinic they go to and get free treatment as adults. I will check with them about how the uniforms work, but thats what they told me, and ive heard it from others.

I would say either the friend knows what you're like and is playing to your ability to absorb copious amounts of information OR there is in fact a free maori dental clinic, but it will be set up by and paid for by the tribe(s) for the benefit of the tribal members... 
(edit: like this tribe https://www.tuwharetoa.co.nz/kaumatua/#:...0treatment )

I doubt very much it will be coming from the government coffers...

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Some Maori, through iwi or maraes have access to dental or gp clinics, funded and staffed by those providers. I was a patient at one for a time, so they are not purely for Maori. They have been established because access to dental and health care has often been a struggle for Maori, because of poverty, distance, lack of education, or other social impediments.

Trying to balance out these access issues by providing remedies is no more racist than universities providing the same services for their students. Or providing subsidised laptops, or libraries, or gyms, or pools... Some companies do the same thing, providing benefits for employees.

There are enough structural racist, age, and gender based underpinnings in our community that serve to funnel people into social classes, industries, job classifications and careers, and health and education statistics without insisting these fake ones exist. Why is it though, that instead of fighting those very real barriers, there are political parties determined to not only maintain them, but to gaslight anyone who stands up and points them out?

The answer is pretty obvious. Because they represent, and are funded by, the people and organisations who benefit from those barriers. Who profit from cheap uneducated labour. Who profit from increased prison populations. Who do not want healthy strong passionate voices challenging their positions in the community.

Who do not want to share the wealth.

Or learn te reo...

---

You have a friend who told you... good heavens, google it. Get the actual truth and stop believing crap.

The Jesuits say 'give us a boy till the age of seven, and we will show you the man'. Sometimes we need to seek education in order to overcome the suspect conditioning of our youth. Or, we can continue to look for ways to reinforce it, and stay ignorant.

It is a choice.

Is it crap?
Why are NZF and ACT campaigning against all this if its a fabricated thing? What are the maori so unhappy about that they are protesting against it?
Are they worried about loosing more handouts?

Either way, my friends tell me its real, and take advantage of these services, so it must be a thing, thinking about it, i have seen such clinics when driving about.
Dental care should be free or heavily subsidized anyway. Could easily be done if the govt didnt blow money elsewhere.
A sugar tax on fizzy drinks would easily fund it, i wouldnt have an issue with that if it meant free dental care for everybody.

What services would you be willing to give up to pay for free dental care for everybody? Understanding that there is funding for dental care for all children, and for all low income people in need of basic care through WINZ (and at rates increased by the Labour government just last year)...

Or would you be happy to pay more income tax? Or maybe, increase the taxes for those at the top end of the wealth pyramid?

[Lilith7]

Some Maori,  through iwi or maraes have access to dental or gp clinics, funded and staffed by those providers. I was a patient at one for a time, so they are not purely for Maori. They have been established because access to dental and health care has often been a struggle for Maori, because of poverty, distance, lack of education, or other social impediments.

Trying to balance out these access issues by providing remedies is no more racist than universities providing the same services for their students. Or providing subsidised laptops, or libraries, or gyms, or pools... Some companies do the same thing, providing benefits for employees.

There are enough structural racist, age, and gender based underpinnings in our community that serve to funnel people into social classes, industries, job classifications and careers, and health and education statistics without insisting these fake ones exist. Why is it though, that instead of fighting those very real barriers, there are political parties determined to not only maintain them, but to gaslight anyone who stands up and points them out?

The answer is pretty obvious. Because they represent, and are funded by, the people and organisations who benefit from those barriers. Who profit from cheap uneducated labour. Who profit from increased prison populations. Who do not want healthy strong passionate voices challenging their positions in the community.

Who do not want to share the wealth.

Or learn te reo...

---

Is it crap?
Why are NZF and ACT campaigning against all this if its a fabricated thing? What are the maori so unhappy about that they are protesting against it?
Are they worried about loosing more handouts?

Either way, my friends tell me its real, and take advantage of these services, so it must be a thing, thinking about it, i have seen such clinics when driving about.
Dental care should be free or heavily subsidized anyway. Could easily be done if the govt didnt blow money elsewhere.
A sugar tax on fizzy drinks would easily fund it, i wouldnt have an issue with that if it meant free dental care for everybody.

What services would you be willing to give up to pay for free dental care for everybody? Understanding that there is funding for dental care for all children, and for all low income people in need of basic care through WINZ (and at rates increased by the Labour government just last year)...

Or would you be happy to pay more income tax? Or maybe, increase the taxes for those at the top end of the wealth pyramid?

What really seriously pithes  me orff on things such as this is the language used by the mean spirited people who are opposed to anyone at all being given help - unless its them & their mates obviously.

"Handouts" invariably makes an appearance, a term which wilfully ignores the fact that most of those on the receiving end will at some point have almost certainly paid taxes, thus contributing towards any  financial help they might receive.

And then there's the attitude of those who use such a term - according to most,anyone receiving any tiny scrap of help at all is unworthy by virtue of actually needing that help. Because, in the  greed motivated minds of people like that, those in need didn't use their 'personal responsibility'. They ignore accidents & misfortunes, prefering to point the finger at anyone in need.

They tend to have a very different view of any suggestion that there might be a wealth tax.

IF we were a more caring society then we'd be paying higher taxes to as far as possible, cover health, education, welfare &  ensure that no one is in need.
 There would be a  wealth tax -  but not to a punitive level & an excellent standard of education.
 And with any sort of luck, the latter might even ensure that no one ever again, falls for the greed based evil of Neoliberalism