Pro vs anti

[windytoves]

I fail to see how being unvaccinated is any more of a risk than being vaccinated.  From what I can tell being vaccinated is supposed to be more likely to keep you out of hospital, however it does not stop you from catching it and it does not stop you from spreading it  So why all the hoo-ha about unvaccinated people being denied access to areas that vaccinated people can go to? Surely the risk is the same.  The current Chch cases are such an example - 2 people who have been double jabbed first testing negative then testing positive days later but in meantime wandering around and spreading it.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

I got vaccinated to protect the very vulnerable elderly neighbours I have, and to reduce the chances of getting sick myself. I also want to get my regular very small life back. The vaccinations will help me do those things, and didn't hurt in in the least.
If the advice is right, I have reduced my chances of both getting seriously sick and reduced my chances of transmitting the virus to others. In addition I can reduce both those further by wearing a mask when around other people and social distancing, so I will do that too.
If those other people are also vaccinated, masked, and distanced the chances reduce even further.

I like those odds a lot better than risking being very sick in order to avoid getting a couple of tiny needles.

For me, reduction is the whole point.

[videomonkey]

I fail to see how being unvaccinated is any more of a risk than being vaccinated.  From what I can tell being vaccinated is supposed to be more likely to keep you out of hospital, however it does not stop you from catching it and it does not stop you from spreading it  So why all the hoo-ha about unvaccinated people being denied access to areas that vaccinated people can go to? Surely the risk is the same.  The current Chch cases are such an example - 2 people who have been double jabbed first testing negative then testing positive days later but in meantime wandering around and spreading it.

You're much less likely to catch and spread the virus if you're vaccinated.

If you're unvaccinated, you're about 20 times more likely to spread it.

If you look at the stats from this outbreak, the vast majority of cases were unvaccinated. So the majority of this outbreak is being driven by the unvaccinated. Obviously that's not necessarily their fault, as many of the cases would have occured before people had a chance to get vaxxed. But we're well past that now.

It can also depend on how long a case has been vaccinated for. It takes about 14 takes to reach full immunity after the second jab.

[king1]

I'm no expert but I do think the science is very clear on this matter, and the hospitalisation rates of unvaccinated vs vaccinated speaks volumes...

These days, now that the majority of sensible people are already, or on their way to being, fully vaccinated, the remaining unvaccinated are either the young, those with health reasons, or dare I say it the less sensible members of society who tend to be in denial of the risks and/or object to being told what to do. As such they can't be trusted to do the right thing when required ie mask up, limit groups, self isolate when required etc IMHO the unvaccinated people themselves and their decision making is where the real increased risk lies...

Just my two cents...

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Consequences are difficult things to deal with sometimes.

---

Btw, that splash of colour livens up the place no end. We could do with more of that.

[crafters_corner]

If you are prepared to take the risk of not being jabbed, then you have to accept the consequences of that.

The 1918 flu epidemic killed around 9000 people within about 2 months, here in NZ.
This could so easily happen with covid, if none of us got the vaccinations.

You have to think about the bigger picture. We know the history of epidemics, but don't yet know what the future holds. Please don't lose sight of the fact, that covid could so easily run rampant here, and we could lose thousands of NZers.

Do it for yourself, your family, your community, and for your country.

[Lilith7]

I got the double jab because I've three little great grandkids - too small yet for the jab so for me it just made sense. Plus, I'd rather not get it myself if it can be avoided, & vaccination helps with that.

[nzoomed]

Im kinda on the fence with it.
Obviously it helps with reduction of symptoms, but OTOH, we just had a CHCH case who left MIQ and later tested positive who was double vaxxed.
Now we have COVID running through a rest home in Auckland where the majority are double vaxxed.
From what I can see, the vaccine will at worst stop you from getting seriously ill, but there is still a chance you can spread it with or without symptoms and the main issue i can see is it potentially gives people a false sense of security that you are unable to catch the virus or spread it to others and less likely to go and get tested.
Now covid is now known to have all sorts of crazy long term side effects and I hate to think what it does to your body, especially what they are saying it can do to your brain and other organs.
Its not just a normal respiratory virus, it seems to be much more broad what parts of the body it affects, so you have to take this into account vs getting the jab.

[videomonkey]

Im kinda on the fence with it.
Obviously it helps with reduction of symptoms, but OTOH, we just had a CHCH case who left MIQ and later tested positive who was double vaxxed.
Now we have COVID running through a rest home in Auckland where the majority are double vaxxed.
From what I can see, the vaccine will at worst stop you from getting seriously ill, but there is still a chance you can spread it with or without symptoms and the main issue i can see is it potentially gives people a false sense of security that you are unable to catch the virus or spread it to others and less likely to go and get tested.
Now covid is now known to have all sorts of crazy long term side effects and I hate to think what it does to your body, especially what they are saying it can do to your brain and other organs.
Its not just a normal respiratory virus, it seems to be much more broad what parts of the body it affects, so you have to take this into account vs getting the jab.

It's interesting that we're seeing more breakout cases among the fully vaxxed, when the stats clearly show the vast majority of current cases are unvaccinated. I wonder in the case of the rest home, they have potentially been vaccinated for some time, and the efficacy of the vaccine does die off significantly within 6 months. Maybe time for that booster shot roll out.

[crafters_corner]

Im kinda on the fence with it.
Obviously it helps with reduction of symptoms, but OTOH, we just had a CHCH case who left MIQ and later tested positive who was double vaxxed.
Now we have COVID running through a rest home in Auckland where the majority are double vaxxed.
From what I can see, the vaccine will at worst stop you from getting seriously ill, but there is still a chance you can spread it with or without symptoms and the main issue i can see is it potentially gives people a false sense of security that you are unable to catch the virus or spread it to others and less likely to go and get tested.
Now covid is now known to have all sorts of crazy long term side effects and I hate to think what it does to your body, especially what they are saying it can do to your brain and other organs.
Its not just a normal respiratory virus, it seems to be much more broad what parts of the body it affects, so you have to take this into account vs getting the jab.

It's interesting that we're seeing more breakout cases among the fully vaxxed, when the stats clearly show the vast majority of current cases are unvaccinated. I wonder in the case of the rest home, they have potentially been vaccinated for some time, and the efficacy of the vaccine does die off significantly within 6 months. Maybe time for that booster shot roll out.

Indeed, and just another reason for the antivaxxers or the hestitant, to not vaccinate.

It feels a little like it's starting to get a bit out of control, and we arn't moving fast enough.

I do sometimes think that maybe we should just open up everything, and let the chips fall where they may. Then again.....a dumb idea, because we will undoubtedly see deaths much soon that we would wish. I don't envy the powers that be, at all.

[nzoomed]

It's interesting that we're seeing more breakout cases among the fully vaxxed, when the stats clearly show the vast majority of current cases are unvaccinated. I wonder in the case of the rest home, they have potentially been vaccinated for some time, and the efficacy of the vaccine does die off significantly within 6 months. Maybe time for that booster shot roll out.

Indeed, and just another reason for the antivaxxers or the hestitant, to not vaccinate.

It feels a little like it's starting to get a bit out of control, and we arn't moving fast enough.

I do sometimes think that maybe we should just open up everything, and let the chips fall where they may. Then again.....a dumb idea, because we will undoubtedly see deaths much soon that we would wish. I don't envy the powers that be, at all.

I dont think the cases in Auckland are really that much out of control given the circumstances, yes there are restrictions but many appear to be breaking the rules. 100 or so a day in Auckland is not much and doesnt appear to be exploding at the same rate as australia, the number of those cases needing hospital care appears minimal, Im assuming that there must be a certain percentage of these cases that are vaccinated, or else if they are mostly unvaxxed, then it would have to be spreading in communities where vax rates are low because Auckland is now at 91% with at least one jab iirc.

[kiwi]

The government line is that being vaccinated keeps you out of hospital and makes you contagious for a shorter length of time.
But I don't trust this government. There's so many conflicting stories going around.

I've heard of people dying shortly after receiving the vaccine. Young and middle aged healthy people. But they don't show on the government websites (CARM?). I also read that the government is not updating it's website.

OK, so I just checked here https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/saf...ort-33.asp

This is the part that they do not seem to be updating:

40 of these deaths are unlikely related to the COVID-19 vaccine
38 deaths could not be assessed due to insufficient information
15 cases are still under investigation.
1 death was likely due to vaccine induced myocarditis (awaiting Coroner’s determination)

The numbers have remained like that for months.
Also note they admit 1 death but if you added the 38 that could not be assessed you get a possible 39, plus the other 40 are only not likely (in their opinion) but in each case someone saw a link or they would not have filed a report.

---

I'm no expert but I do think the science is very clear on this matter, and the hospitalisation rates of unvaccinated vs vaccinated speaks volumes...

These days, now that the majority of sensible people are already, or on their way to being, fully vaccinated, the remaining unvaccinated are either the young, those with health reasons, or dare I say it the less sensible members of society who tend to be in denial of the risks and/or object to being told what to do.  As such they can't be trusted to do the right thing when required ie mask up, limit groups, self isolate when required etc  IMHO the unvaccinated people themselves and their decision making is where the real increased risk lies...

Just my two cents...

I object to being told what to do. For that reason and because of the possible side effects/death I am not vaccinated. I do however wear a mask, contact trace and limit group size. If I needed to self isolate I would but I have not been sick. At all.

---

...
It feels a little like it's starting to get a bit out of control, and we arn't moving fast enough.
...

It does seem to be getting out of control in the sense of legislation. I.e the levels getting ammended. Traffic light system. How to handle travel over the Christmas break, i.e how to stop unvaccinated from traveling. They can't stop everyone to check their status. The roads are already jam-packed over Christmas.

[Praktica]

"But I don't trust this government. There's so many conflicting stories going around."
How do you assess the truth of the conflicting stories? I'm lucky, in that I have a science and medical background, so I'm able to process the information we get. Most of the "conflicting stories" are ignorant rubbish. Your lack of trust in the government is a completely different issue, which should not cloud your thinking on a matter of science.

[videomonkey]

The government line is that being vaccinated keeps you out of hospital and makes you contagious for a shorter length of time.
But I don't trust this government. There's so many conflicting stories going around.

I've heard of people dying shortly after receiving the vaccine. Young and middle aged healthy people. But they don't show on the government websites (CARM?). I also read that the government is not updating it's website.

Firstly, it's not the government's line. It's the line of every vaccine expert in the world. 

Secondly, "I've heard of people dying" is not a valid argument. Provide facts, not just lines you've read on social media.

And lastly, regarding the VAERS database (which is updated monthly), even if those 79 deaths WERE linked to the vaccine (highly unlikely), that's 79 deaths out of 3.7 million people vaccinated. That's 0.002%. The chance to die from COVID is thousands of times higher. And that doesn't take long COVID and hospitalisations into account.

The chance of the vaccine killing you is so incredibly low that if you're worried about it, you should never drive a car again. Or even go outside, as the chance of dying in a freak accident is much higher.

Every medication has a risk and benefit. Even panadol. Did you know birth control has about a 1% risk of causing blood clots over 10 years of use? But it's one of the most commonly used drugs in the world. But we take the medication because the benefit outweighs the risk. 

Get jabbed so we can get out of this damn lock down.

[crafters_corner]

You make a very good point there, about birth control meds, and we all still took them, knowing what the side effects could be....blood clots eg. We all have a duty of care, to weigh up the benefits vs the risks, and make an informed decision. Being proactive and looking at the science, and understanding that everything in life has benefits and risks.

In the case of covid, we are all having to make major decision about being vaccinated or not. It is a very overwhelming choice to make, and that we have to make it, without any long term knowledge of what might, or might not, happen, is difficult.

It is extremely frustrating, and it brings up alot of feelings of anger, of those who are holding us back from getting some sense of normality and freedom, rather than staying in this limbo of lockdowns, which can take an emotional toll on everyone.

[kiwi]

OK we don't use birth control pills.
I personally am not keeping you in lockdown if you're in Auckland. I'm in Whangarei. And you'll be in the traffic light system soon. I'm happy to live with the restrictions on me when my region goes to the traffic light system. I am also happy to bear the consequences of COVID at home and free up a hospital bed.

It's hard to believe I'm listening to "social media" when even doctors that practice near me say this: https://player.vimeo.com/video/562110284?h=0a11a8dab7

I've also met this man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UucTa2wY8oc

I've had every other kind of vaccine including those for overseas travel without hesitation.

One way I can assess conflicting stories is that this government decided it's ok to abort people at full term without painkiller. And they can feel pain at full term. Babies can even be born at 7 months and survive. The argument seems to be that they aren't human until they're born but after giving consideration to at which point they become human I realised it's at the point of conception. That is when they receive their human DNA. They further ruled that if an abortion fails the baby must be left to die without help. How inhumane is that? So who's the real human? The baby is judged condemned to death before having a chance to prove his or her virtue while murderers live on. So on that basis I don't trust this government.

[videomonkey]

I live in Hamilton, so yes you're keeping me in lock down. We have to wait for everyone.

Also nzsos is absolute nonsense. This surprisingly well written article on Stuff is well worth reading. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/c...pp-android

Why listen to a tiny handful of doctors (most of them aren't actually medical doctors, and others have lost their license to practice), when there's an open letter from 6000+ doctors in NZ supporting the vaccine?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zeala...nated.html

[crafters_corner]

OK we don't use birth control pills.
I personally am not keeping you in lockdown if you're in Auckland. I'm in Whangarei. And you'll be in the traffic light system soon. I'm happy to live with the restrictions on me when my region goes to the traffic light system. I am also happy to bear the consequences of COVID at home and free up a hospital bed.

It's hard to believe I'm listening to "social media" when even doctors that practice near me say this: https://player.vimeo.com/video/562110284?h=0a11a8dab7

I've also met this man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UucTa2wY8oc

I've had every other kind of vaccine including those for overseas travel without hesitation.

One way I can assess conflicting stories is that this government decided it's ok to abort people at full term without painkiller. And they can feel pain at full term. Babies can even be born at 7 months and survive. The argument seems to be that they aren't human until they're born but after giving consideration to at which point they become human I realised it's at the point of conception. That is when they receive their human DNA. They further ruled that if an abortion fails the baby must be left to die without help. How inhumane is that? So who's the real human? The baby is judged condemned to death before having a chance to prove his or her virtue while murderers live on. So on that basis I don't trust this government.

Good grief. Firstly, if you're not vaccinated, and don't intend to be, then yes, you are keeping me, and all of us in Auckland, or in the Waikato where I am. Thanks for nothing.
Secondly, wtf are you talking about, re abortions??
You have some very warped thinking.

[king1]

I'm no expert but I do think the science is very clear on this matter, and the hospitalisation rates of unvaccinated vs vaccinated speaks volumes...

These days, now that the majority of sensible people are already, or on their way to being, fully vaccinated, the remaining unvaccinated are either the young, those with health reasons, or dare I say it the less sensible members of society who tend to be in denial of the risks and/or object to being told what to do.  As such they can't be trusted to do the right thing when required ie mask up, limit groups, self isolate when required etc  IMHO the unvaccinated people themselves and their decision making is where the real increased risk lies...

Just my two cents...

I object to being told what to do. For that reason and because of the possible side effects/death I am not vaccinated. I do however wear a mask, contact trace and limit group size. If I needed to self isolate I would but I have not been sick. At all.

---

Well all I can say to that is we live in a society that imposes rules of law over peoples body and mind all the time.  It is part of the social contract of living in and being a citizen of NZ, no-one is exempt.

The only reason it is probably not a legal requirement is because they know the majority of people will do the right thing for the rest of society, putting aside their childish notions of not wanting to be told what to do for the greater good of society.  Honestly it's like saying i'm not going to work because i don't like a boss telling me what to do - there is a cost to that decision, as there will be a cost for not being vaccinated...

Then there is the increased risk of long covid which, ignoring the health implications for those afflicted, will be a burden on the state (ie everyone) for many years to come, so everything we do to minimise the number of infected benefits everyone, and everyone who does not is contributing to that burden, so don't expect any favours from 'your' society...

And if that doesn't convince you to do the right thing, at some stage there is going to be a right royal 'I told you so' to all antivaxxer's.   This is a classic Darwinism survival of the fittest affair.  Family lines are dying out, and it will be mostly the unvaccinated that will suffer it from now on - that stats are irrefutable... 

Might be a little harsh but the time for pandering is over IMHO

[videomonkey]

Might be a little harsh but the time for pandering is over IMHO

Agreed. The science couldn't be clearer. It's now the most studied vaccine in history. Anyone holding back needs to get off social media and actually look at the facts, not a handful of idiots spouting misinformation for their own gain. Every single anti-vax argument can easily be refuted by looking at the science.