The mistake with the bootcamp....

[C_T_Russell]

Is that those kids should have been thrown in prison to begin with.
They are dangerous as was evident being armed with a machete.
Then we have to put up with Chloe saying it the boot camps fault that this happened, no Chloe, the boot camp didn't turn them violent, get a grip.

[king1]

prison is just higher education for youth offenders...

[harm_less]

prison is just higher education for youth offenders...

Yep. Essentially gang enrollment facilities.

[Jan]

If Chloe really does care about our kids its a pity she doesn’t support reversing the changes in the law Jacinda and Kelvin Davis were responsible for which impels judges to take children out of their very safe foster homes to return them to their violent whanau - what about these kids Chloe and Hipkins - two in six weeks .Imagine 8 years old first night away from your foster parents getting beaten to death in your bed with a hammer .
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hamilton-c...AXYRLFQAI/
https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/36049343...tane-named

[Lilith7]

Boot camps in the past haven't an especially good record.


Far better to start at the beggining, rather than chucking kids on the scrap heap. Teach teenagers basic parenting, cooking, gardening, budgeting.

Support & help those who are parents now & those who become new parents.

If we continue to do that for several generations there will be a better result than the situation we have now.

[king1]

If Chloe really does care about our kids its a pity she  doesn’t support reversing the changes in the law  Jacinda and Kelvin Davis were responsible for which impels judges to take children out of their very safe foster homes to return them to their violent whanau - what about these kids Chloe and Hipkins - two in six weeks .Imagine 8 years old first night away from your foster parents getting beaten to death in your bed with a hammer .
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hamilton-c...AXYRLFQAI/
https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/36049343...tane-named

neither of those articles seem to suggest the family was definitely responsible? 

How is it not better for a child to be returned to his family home if the family home is the best option... Some random stranger breaking into the house and killing the son surely can't make government policy responsible for this crime.  As for the other child, the accused has name suppression so that's a bit unknown...

But either way I feel like returning them to family on the whole is a good policy, if it is safe.  If it turns out one of them was a family member then surely that is a failing of the processes to determine if it was safe.

[Lilith7]

If Chloe really does care about our kids its a pity she  doesn’t support reversing the changes in the law  Jacinda and Kelvin Davis were responsible for which impels judges to take children out of their very safe foster homes to return them to their violent whanau - what about these kids Chloe and Hipkins - two in six weeks .Imagine 8 years old first night away from your foster parents getting beaten to death in your bed with a hammer .
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hamilton-c...AXYRLFQAI/
https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/36049343...tane-named

neither of those articles seem to suggest the family was definitely responsible? 

How is it not better for a child to be returned to his family home if the family home is the best option... Some random stranger breaking into the house and killing the son surely can't make government policy responsible for this crime.  As for the other child, the accused has name suppression so that's a bit unknown...

But either way I feel like returning them to family on the whole is a good policy, if it is safe.  If it turns out one of them was a family member then surely that is a failing of the processes to determine if it was safe.

We could do far worse than to continue doing what Celia Lashlie was doing; which got some excellent results. Supporting & helping the mums to be good parents seems to work rather better than simply using harsh punishment.

The Celia Lashlie trust

https://www.celialashlie.nz/

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Throw the kids in prison? Some of us must've had very different childhoods to the one I enjoyed.

Poor buggers.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

I haven't seen any statements by Chloe about the appalling parenting skills some families exhibit. Or about the laws around fostering.

I do know there have been a lot of articles and investigations of the way some social workers choose to break up families and remove children, including newborns, rather than seek other ways to support families.

But then, I guess it's cheaper to do that than put parenting classes into schools, or provide mentoring for new mothers, or to actively protect them from aggressive males in situations poisoned by drug addiction, crime, and intergenerational trauma.

Whatever it is, our record is one of the worst in the western world. But no one seems to care about that. Back under the last government, or this one.

[Lilith7]

I haven't seen any statements by Chloe about the appalling parenting skills some families exhibit. Or about the laws around fostering.

I do know there have been a lot of articles and investigations of the way some social workers choose to break up families and remove children, including newborns, rather than seek other ways to support families.

But then, I guess it's cheaper to do that than put parenting classes into schools, or provide mentoring for new mothers, or to actively protect them from aggressive males in situations poisoned by drug addiction, crime, and intergenerational trauma.

Whatever it is, our record is one of the worst in the western world. But no one seems to care about that. Back under the last government, or this one.

Absolutely agree; all of those plus education about addiction,which most of us tend not to know much about. But,given that its a genetic disease, we really should, since its likely to affect us or someone we know at some point during our lives. The risk is somewhere between 40% -60%.

https://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/...ion/genes/

The other thing about our idiotic system is that under Neo Liberalism, all those things offer a chance to enrich some; there's money in prisons, (& sooner or later they may even get around to emualting the USA & force prisoners to work,win win...) there's money in education & there's money in health.

Any minute now they'll have orphanages & workhouses wiith the inmates obliged to work...serfdom around the corner...



"The danger is here, for two men are not as lonely & perplexed as one. And from this first ‘we’ there grows a still more dangerous thing:”I have a little food” plus “I have none”.
The baby has a cold. Here, take this blanket. Its wool. It was my mother’s blanket – take it for the baby. This is the thing to bomb. This is the beginning – from ‘I’ to ‘we."
The grapes of wrath, John Steinbeck.



‘If he’ll take twenty five, I’ll do it for twenty. ‘No, me. I’m hungry. I’ll work for fifteen. I’ll work for food.
And this was good, for wages went down & prices stayed up. The great owners were glad & they sent out more handbills to bring more people in. And wages went down & prices stayed up. And pretty soon now we’ll have serfs again....

And now the great owners invented a new method. A great owner bought a cannery. And when the peaches & pears were ripe he cut the price of fruit below the cost of raising it. And as
cannery owner he paid himself a low price for the fruit & kept the price of canned goods up & took his profit.

And the companies, the banks worked at their own doom & they did not know it.The fields were fruitful, & starving men moved on the roads. The granaries were full & the children of the poor grew up rachitic, & the pustules of pellagra swelled on their sides. The great companies did not know that the line between hunger & anger is a thin line. And money that might have gone to wages went for gas, for guns, for agents & spies, for blacklists, for drilling. On the highways the people moved like ants & searched for work, for food. And the anger began to ferment."
The grapes of wrath, John Steinbeck.

[C_T_Russell]

prison is just higher education for youth offenders...

Yep. Essentially gang enrollment facilities.

I agree, gangs recruit youth in prisons heavily, I think the only answer to the problem is to have dedicated gang only prisons, or at least a separate wing in them where only gang members are kept and not permitted to mix with any other inmates.
Even better would be to keep all individual gangs separate from each other, so for example one prison would only house mongrel mob and another would keep head hunters, etc, etc.
I guess the latter may happen to some degree as I could expect it could lead to prison riots or fights, etc.

If Chloe really does care about our kids its a pity she  doesn’t support reversing the changes in the law  Jacinda and Kelvin Davis were responsible for which impels judges to take children out of their very safe foster homes to return them to their violent whanau - what about these kids Chloe and Hipkins - two in six weeks .Imagine 8 years old first night away from your foster parents getting beaten to death in your bed with a hammer .
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hamilton-c...AXYRLFQAI/
https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/36049343...tane-named

Agreed, it just shows you the dim view the left have on family violence.

Boot camps in the past haven't an especially good record.


Far better to start at the beggining, rather than chucking kids on the scrap heap. Teach teenagers basic parenting, cooking, gardening, budgeting.

Support & help  those who are parents now & those who become new parents.

If we  continue to do that for several generations  there will be a better result than the situation we have now.

I dont think NZ has really given them much of a go in the past, you might be looking at examples overseas where its failed, but NZ can not only learn from other countries mistakes, but implement a better system.
And by the way, it does appear to be having some success, apparently 90% success and the reporters were giving the govt a hard time not that long ago and clutching on straws how 10% dropped out or something and the response was that means we are 90% successful and thats a great outcome.

I wouldnt call it a tough military style bootcamp as is depicted by the media anyway, its more about compulsory training on lifeskills, independence and confidence, something that is sadly lacking in these youths, if it helps them turn their lives around and give them something they never had growing up, then thats a win-win.
we cant have these youths getting recruited in gangs, the sooner we can address youth crime, the better, because it starts at a very young age.

[Lilith7]

Yep. Essentially gang enrollment facilities.

I agree, gangs recruit youth in prisons heavily, I think the only answer to the problem is to have dedicated gang only prisons, or at least a separate wing in them where only gang members are kept and not permitted to mix with any other inmates.
Even better would be to keep all individual gangs separate from each other, so for example one prison would only house mongrel mob and another would keep head hunters, etc, etc.
I guess the latter may happen to some degree as I could expect it could lead to prison riots or fights, etc.

If Chloe really does care about our kids its a pity she  doesn’t support reversing the changes in the law  Jacinda and Kelvin Davis were responsible for which impels judges to take children out of their very safe foster homes to return them to their violent whanau - what about these kids Chloe and Hipkins - two in six weeks .Imagine 8 years old first night away from your foster parents getting beaten to death in your bed with a hammer .
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hamilton-c...AXYRLFQAI/
https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/36049343...tane-named

Agreed, it just shows you the dim view the left have on family violence.

Boot camps in the past haven't an especially good record.


Far better to start at the beggining, rather than chucking kids on the scrap heap. Teach teenagers basic parenting, cooking, gardening, budgeting.

Support & help  those who are parents now & those who become new parents.

If we  continue to do that for several generations  there will be a better result than the situation we have now.

I dont think NZ has really given them much of a go in the past, you might be looking at examples overseas where its failed, but NZ can not only learn from other countries mistakes, but implement a better system.
And by the way, it does appear to be having some success, apparently 90% success and the reporters were giving the govt a hard time not that long ago and clutching on straws how 10% dropped out or something and the response was that means we are 90% successful and thats a great outcome.

I wouldnt call it a tough military style bootcamp as is depicted by the media anyway, its more about compulsory training on lifeskills, independence and confidence, something that is sadly lacking in these youths, if it helps them turn their lives around and give them something they never had growing up, then thats a win-win.
we cant have these youths getting recruited in gangs, the sooner we can address youth crime, the better, because it starts at a very young age.

On the contrary, we did give the wretched things a good go. And as predicted by some, the results were dire. And to be blunt, any damned fool - including politicians - in favour of starting them again is either deeply ignorant or a sadist.




https://thespinoff.co.nz/the-quarter-mil...hakapakari

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/03/06/youth...ve-lawyer/


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/4792...are-lawyer

[zqwerty]

In any given society wayward rebellious youth are inevitable, a fact of life.

Offering a society with clear career paths and a bright future unlike what NZ is offering at the moment would be a big help to these unfortunate individuals. The whole country is a badly planned/non-planned mess. There is no excuse for it, what country in the world has a possible brighter future than NZ?

It's like the Wild-West.

I'll start it off with some Watch-Words:

Diversify, Diversify, Diversify. Electrify the Main Trunk Line.

[Lilith7]

In any given society wayward rebellious youth are inevitable, a fact of life.

Offering a society with clear career paths and a bright future unlike what NZ is offering at the moment would be a big help to these unfortunate individuals.  The whole country is a badly planned/non-planned mess.  There is no excuse for it, what country in the world has a possible brighter future than NZ?

It's like the Wild-West.

I'll start it off with some Watch-Words:

Diversify, Diversify, Diversify.  Electrify the Main Trunk Line.

If we could manage to get ALL of our politicians to use commonsense & intelligence & take a long term view, rather than just their term in govt, we might see some progress.

[Praktica]

In any given society wayward rebellious youth are inevitable, a fact of life.

Offering a society with clear career paths and a bright future unlike what NZ is offering at the moment would be a big help to these unfortunate individuals.  The whole country is a badly planned/non-planned mess.  There is no excuse for it, what country in the world has a possible brighter future than NZ?

It's like the Wild-West.

I'll start it off with some Watch-Words:

Diversify, Diversify, Diversify.  Electrify the Main Trunk Line.

If we could manage to get ALL of our politicians to use commonsense & intelligence & take a long term view, rather than just their term in govt, we might see some progress.

But - a lot of voters don't use any sort of sense. They vote as their emotions tell them, and the politicians play on their baser emotions...envy, racism, hatred.

[Lilith7]

If we could manage to get ALL of our politicians to use commonsense & intelligence & take a long term view, rather than just their term in govt, we might see some progress.

But - a lot of voters don't use any sort of sense. They vote as their emotions tell them, and the politicians play on their baser emotions...envy, racism, hatred.

Then perhaps we need new guidelines - or laws - with regard to politicians...?