Israel v Palestine

[Lilith7]

I think the best chance for peace there would be for Israel to ditch its far right govt & let the peace groups on both sides try to achieve actual peace.



Hamas says it has enough Israeli prisoners to release all Palestinian prisoners.


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/7...-prisoners

Hamas quite openly are not interested in peace, they explicitly spell that out in their manifesto. Their aim is to eradicate all Jews, not just from Israel but worldwide.  Until Hamas is removed from power in Gaza, there can be no peace and Israel cannot back down.

Nonetheless, there are peace groups made up of both Palestinians & Israelis who have been working to try to bring about peace.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

And that would work better if the powers that created this mess stopped stirring the pot for their own benefits.

[Lilith7]

And that would work better if the powers that created this mess stopped stirring the pot for their own benefits.

Yes it would, wouldn't it. But then war is very convenient - & profitable - for some.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzG_4e8yGew

---

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/8...ombs-homes

[dken31]

Hamas quite openly are not interested in peace, they explicitly spell that out in their manifesto. Their aim is to eradicate all Jews, not just from Israel but worldwide.  Until Hamas is removed from power in Gaza, there can be no peace and Israel cannot back down.

Nonetheless, there are peace groups made up of both Palestinians & Israelis who have been working to try to bring about peace.

I agree completely with this (and also with the comments re. pot stiring and war profiteering). As I've said, Hamas don't actually care at all about their own people, although they've successfully conned many into thinking that they do. But, those that see through the lies would love to create mutually beneficial peace between Palestinians and Israelies.

Also, as much as Hamas is evil and are just using the unfortunate people of Gaza to further their own aims, Hamas is just being used by their backers (Iran and who knows who else), so if they are successfully dismantled (as is certainly required for peace) I suspect that, unfortunately, a replacement will pop straight up that is just as bad.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

I think the only way to judge a group like this is to spend time inside it. Otherwise all we can do is look at the history, look at the modern context, understand motivations and then make our own opinions.

We know much more about the human cultural and social trauma inflicted by colonisation these days. Hamas, among other organisations is in my opinion, a direct result of colonisation.

[Lilith7]

I rather wonder whether it might also be seen as being 'evil' to go into a family home, force out those living there & then proceed to live in their house.

There's definitely fault on both sides in this conflict. Perhaps what's needed is a council of Grandmothers, half Israeli & half Palestinian, all of whom have lost someone as a result of the conflict, & let them set about peace making.
They could hardly do worse...

[R2x1]

Perhaps NZ could send a conscripted band of front line persons to serve on both sides, selected by serial number, Even numbers serve with Hamas, odd ones serve with the invaders who have been deported as routine for about the last 6K years. The selection process could be entirely from ACT supporters, so maybe the quality of the populace could be enhanced on both sides of the globe?
It's worth a shot, maybe even a volley or two.

[nzoomed]

2000 rockets heading into Israel makes the ukraine situation look tame.
What I don't get is Israel is supposed to have a relatively robust military?
What do they have in the way of air defense to intercept those rockets?
But yes I agree, the US is largely responsible if you look back into history.

There are videos of Israel's "Iron Dome" system taking out incoming missiles.

True, ive never really looked into what they have got, I can see why they needed to send 2000 rockets, probably only around a dozen or so made it past their defences.

[Lilith7]

Perhaps NZ could send a conscripted band of front line persons to serve on both sides, selected by serial number, Even numbers serve with Hamas, odd ones serve with the invaders who have been deported as routine for about the last 6K years.  The selection process could be entirely from ACT supporters, so maybe the quality of the populace could be enhanced on both sides of the globe?
It's worth a shot, maybe even a volley or two.

There was I, reading that & trying to work out where you were going with it... & then it hit me! You devious bugger! Excellent idea....

---

Sadly, Hamas is not doing themselvesd any favours, theyre now threatening to kill hostages, one every time Israel bombs Gaza.

And Israel's idiot leader is also busily posturing & threatening.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-eas...nyahu-says

"The armed wing of the Palestinian militant group Hamas has warned that it will kill an Israeli hostage every time Israel’s military bombs civilian targets in the Gaza Strip without warning.

Abu Obeida, the spokesman of the Qassam Brigades, said in an audio released on Monday night (local time) that the threat was a response to intense air strikes by Israel on civilian areas.

“We have decided to put an end to this and as of now, we declare that any targeting of our people in their homes without prior warning will be regrettably faced with the execution of one the hostages of civilians we are holding,” he said.
Hamas says it is ready for a long battle to end an Israeli occupation it says is no longer tolerable. Desperation has grown among Palestinians, many of whom see nothing to lose under unending Israeli control and increasing settler depredations in the West Bank, the blockade in Gaza and what they see as the world’s apathy. "

"Israel has vowed to increase its strikes on Gaza in response to Hamas' unprecedented surprise attack.

“We have only started striking Hamas,” Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said. “What we will do to our enemies in the coming days will reverberate with them for generations.”

[Oh_hunnihunni]

I guess killing civilians by design is happening on both sides. Hamas are just being really honest about it.

There has to be a better way.

[Lilith7]

I guess killing civilians by design is happening on both sides. Hamas are just being really honest about it.

There has to be a better way.

Yeah, there has to be. If only we weren't such total idiots we might even find a way.
But Israel  has set up a 'complete seige' of Gaza, meaning  no food, electricity or fuel.

While I could perhaps see Netanyahu being very keen to annihalate the  whole of Gaza, I suspect the rest of the world might take a very dim view of that. I'm damned if I can comprehend any govt ready to kill innocent children in the name of war.

[alpha111]

And that would work better if the powers that created this mess stopped stirring the pot for their own benefits.

Yes it would, wouldn't it. But then war is very convenient - & profitable - for some.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzG_4e8yGew

---

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/8...ombs-homes

It is profitable in the sense that large scale weapons production increases a country's GDP.
Gaza is akin to a large concentration camp as far as access and egress goes for the average person.

[Lilith7]

Yes it would, wouldn't it. But then war is very convenient - & profitable - for some.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzG_4e8yGew

---

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/8...ombs-homes

It is profitable in the sense that large scale weapons production increases a country's GDP.
Gaza is akin to a large concentration camp as far as access and egress goes for the average person.

Yes, it seems to be exactly that. Ironically, perhaps not dissimilar to the Warsaw Ghetto during WW2.

There's something badly warped about our species, that we can't learn more readily from our constant need to create differences between ourselves & then squabble, argue, discriminate & have idiotic pointless wars about.

[nzoomed]

There are no winners in this, but it looks like Iran is claiming responsibility too.
Also it's not just attacks out of Gaza this time, seems hamas forces have entered Israel from parts of the Lebanon border?

[Lilith7]

There's also said to be no lack of misinformtion out there as well, including images from games claimed to be from the war.


“All war is a symptom of man's failure as a thinking animal.”

John Steinbeck


He doesn’t belong to a species clever enough to split the atom but not clever enough to live in peace with itself.’
Travels with Charley, John Steinbeck

[Lilith7]

Human rights watch says Israel using white phosphorus.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-eas...023-10-12/

"JERUSALEM, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Human Rights Watch on Thursday accused Israel of using white phosphorus munitions in its military operations in Gaza and Lebanon, saying the use of such weapons puts civilians at risk of serious and long-term injury.
Asked for comment on the allegations, Israel's military said it was "currently not aware of the use of weapons containing white phosphorous in Gaza." It did not provide comment on the rights watchdog's allegations of their use in Lebanon.
Israel has been bombarding Gaza in retaliation for a Hamas rampage in southern Israeli towns that killed at least 1,300 people this week. At least 1,500 Palestinians have been killed. Israel has also traded barbs with Lebanon's Hezbollah group.
Human Rights Watch said it verified videos taken in Lebanon on Oct. 10 and Gaza on Oct. 11 showing "multiple airbursts of artillery-fired white phosphorus over the Gaza City port and two rural locations along the Israel-Lebanon border".
Reuters could not independently verify the rights group's accounts.
Israel's military in 2013 said it was phasing out white phosphorus smokescreen munitions used during its 2008-2009 offensive in Gaza, which drew war crimes allegations from various rights groups.
The military at the time did not say whether it would also review use of weaponised white phosphorus, which is designed to incinerate enemy positions."

[Oh_hunnihunni]

My Dad came home from the Korean War with massive white phosphorus scars across his back. The shells were exploded over the trenches and gun emplacements and the particles dropped like burning snow across the lines onto men bent double shielding their heads. It burned through the overhead camo barriers and dropped onto the men sheltering beneath. Through their clothing, through their skin, through into deep tissue.

It is difficult to put out. The deep pitted burn scars last a lifetime, on the skin and in the memory. No wonder it is classified as a war crime.

[Lilith7]

My Dad came home from the Korean War with massive white phosphorus scars across his back. The shells were exploded over the trenches and gun emplacements and the particles dropped like burning snow across the lines onto men bent double shielding their heads. It burned through the overhead camo  barriers and dropped onto the men sheltering beneath. Through their clothing, through their skin, through into deep tissue.

It is difficult to put out. The deep pitted burn scars last a lifetime, on the skin and in the memory. No wonder it is classified as a war crime.

It should be. In our warpedness, we somehow manage to come up with ever more cruel ways in which to maim & kill each other.

If we could only apply the same energy,enthusiam & ingenuity towards world peace, we'd be unstoppable.

[nzoomed]

Russia have been using tons of the things all over ukraine too it's pretty nasty stuff

[Lilith7]

Yes, it does huge damage - a shame anyone uses it.