Full term abortion legal in NZ

[C_T_Russell]

This is disgusting, the murder of babies is now permitted in this country and whats worse is that the midwives have to deal with the aftermath of the mother giving birth to these stillborn babies after the mother has taken a drug to terminate the pregnancy, and to top it off in the example given here, the baby sometimes is still alive but the staff are legally not allowed to intervene and have to let the baby die on the table.
I found it hard to believe at first, but this is very real, all this legislation slipped through quietly during covid.

https://rcr.media/episodes/judy-martin-h...testimony/

[harm_less]

According to some random website with a report from Rodney Hide... O-kay 

[king1]

I found it hard to believe at first, but this is very real, all this legislation slipped through quietly during covid.

[no backlinks for RCR]

the legislation for it was there in 1977 CT

Here it is 
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/publ...18171.html

and the 2020 legislation
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/publ...37600.html

All looks the same to me...

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Oh for fucks sake...

Now I am offended.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Okay. I have had time to think about this, so here goes.

CT, I have carried an unexpected pregnancy, discovered the fact late after years of medically diagnosed infertility, and carried that child to full term, so I know what that means. I have also had a surgical termination so I know what that means too. I think both experiences qualify me in ways no male will ever be able to match, to speak about female fertility and the way our communities deal with it.

No termination is without consequences, just as no pregnancy is without consequences, primarily for the woman doing the hard yards, but also for her wider circle, including the professional one. And, as it is her body, her psyche, and her life that is at risk, it is entirely her responsibility when it comes to choices and decisions. Anything else is simply unconscionable.

Where late term terminations occur there is always a reason, always consequences, and no uninvolved bystander has any conception or understanding of those, be they legislators, or religious/politically motivated do gooders. Walk a mile in her shoes, then shut the fuck up about it, because CT, there is no way you will ever understand or be expected to understand the cost, the price, of being female and fertile in a world where being female in this world means constant threat to your well being and life.

When male fertility is as legislated, as controlled, and as exploited as female, then maybe we will be a more mature species. Till then hands off things female...

[king1]

do full term abortions actually happen in New Zealand?

That would actually seem to be unconscionable in my mind, but given the source material provided I'm rather suspicious of the claim. Surely it would be simpler for everyone and more ethical to go through with the birth and adopt out the baby.

[Lilith7]

Oh for fucks sake...

Now I am offended.

The very same old anti female bollocks being peddled yet again.

What some ultra right wing conservatives love to label full term abortion is in fact a tragic event. 
The really disgusting,disgraceful thing is that some of the idiots spreading this total bollocks  know very well that what they claim as 'full term abortion' is in fact something unbelievably sad, a tragedy which will remain with those enduring it forever, yet they continue to maliciously spread this harmful bollocks.

[harm_less]

do full term abortions actually happen in New Zealand?

That would actually seem to be unconscionable in my mind, but given the source material provided I'm rather suspicious of the claim.  Surely it would be simpler for everyone and more ethical to go through with the birth and adopt out the baby.

Back when my sister was training to be a nurse, in the late 70s, stories circulated about babies that had been born with severe deformities and anatomic shortcomings that saw them essentially abandoned by the mother to a life of isolation in institutional care for what for many was a very much foreshortened existence. 

The reasoning behind withholding life preserving procedures post-partum in such cases would be better supported than for a baby born fit and healthy though pre-natal embryonic monitoring procedures are much improved these days so I would imagine far fewer situations of this type are likely now.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

do full term abortions actually happen in New Zealand?

That would actually seem to be unconscionable in my mind, but given the source material provided I'm rather suspicious of the claim.  Surely it would be simpler for everyone and more ethical to go through with the birth and adopt out the baby.

According to my theatre nurse friend, yes, late term interventions do take place but are extremely rare and under the kind of heart breaking circumstances that would bring anyone to tears. The law exists to cover those extreme circumstances, to protect those involved,  but these do not take place anywhere near as often as those opposing the law might suggest.

Someone I knew had a pregnancy and neglected to get the kind of routine medical advice most women seek and rely on from the very early days. Tragically the baby was appallingly malformed and she had no option but to go through the pregnancy and a c section with no hope of a viable child. We forget that all pregnancies are risky, even with all the science we have, things go wrong, mothers and babies die or suffer awful outcomes. Our laws have to cover even those to protect those most involved.

[C_T_Russell]

I found it hard to believe at first, but this is very real, all this legislation slipped through quietly during covid.

[no backlinks for RCR]

the legislation for it was there in 1977 CT

Here it is 
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/publ...18171.html

and the 2020 legislation
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/publ...37600.html

All looks the same to me...

It appears section 11 is whats in question, the big issue i see here is if some practitioners could make a poor judgement, even if it requires 2 to make the decision.
I dont know if the person interviewed is full of shit or not, but it needs investigation.

Okay. I have had time to think about this, so here goes.

CT, I have carried an unexpected pregnancy, discovered the fact late after years of medically diagnosed infertility, and carried that child to full term, so I know what that means. I have also had a surgical termination so I know what that means too. I think both experiences qualify me in ways no male will ever be able to match, to speak about female fertility and the way our communities deal with it.

No termination is  without consequences, just as no pregnancy is without consequences, primarily for the woman doing the hard yards, but also for her wider circle, including the professional one.  And, as it is her body, her psyche, and her life that is at risk, it is entirely her responsibility when it comes to choices and decisions. Anything else is simply unconscionable.

Where late term terminations occur there is always a reason, always consequences, and no uninvolved bystander has any conception or understanding of those, be they legislators, or religious/politically motivated do gooders. Walk a mile in her shoes, then shut the fuck up about it, because CT, there is no way you will ever understand or be expected to understand the cost, the price, of being female and fertile in a world where being female in this world means constant threat to your well being and life.

When male fertility is as legislated, as controlled, and as exploited as female, then maybe we will be a more mature species. Till then hands off things female...

Im not actually against abortion, but there has to be a line drawn in the sand, I agree that there are medical cases where the mother could be in danger and termination necessary.
From the example in the interview I shared, it appears that 2 practitioners can permit a termination for any reason, and thats the issue I have.

[king1]

the legislation for it was there in 1977 CT

Here it is 
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/publ...18171.html

and the 2020 legislation
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/publ...37600.html

All looks the same to me...

It appears section 11 is whats in question, the big issue i see here is if some practitioners could make a poor judgement, even if it requires 2 to make the decision.
I dont know if the person interviewed is full of shit or not, but it needs investigation.

Okay. I have had time to think about this, so here goes.

CT, I have carried an unexpected pregnancy, discovered the fact late after years of medically diagnosed infertility, and carried that child to full term, so I know what that means. I have also had a surgical termination so I know what that means too. I think both experiences qualify me in ways no male will ever be able to match, to speak about female fertility and the way our communities deal with it.

No termination is  without consequences, just as no pregnancy is without consequences, primarily for the woman doing the hard yards, but also for her wider circle, including the professional one.  And, as it is her body, her psyche, and her life that is at risk, it is entirely her responsibility when it comes to choices and decisions. Anything else is simply unconscionable.

Where late term terminations occur there is always a reason, always consequences, and no uninvolved bystander has any conception or understanding of those, be they legislators, or religious/politically motivated do gooders. Walk a mile in her shoes, then shut the fuck up about it, because CT, there is no way you will ever understand or be expected to understand the cost, the price, of being female and fertile in a world where being female in this world means constant threat to your well being and life.

When male fertility is as legislated, as controlled, and as exploited as female, then maybe we will be a more mature species. Till then hands off things female...

Im not actually against abortion, but there has to be a line drawn in the sand, I agree that there are medical cases where the mother could be in danger and termination necessary.
From the example in the interview I shared, it appears that 2 practitioners can permit a termination for any reason, and thats the issue I have.

The requirement for two practitioners is the safeguard against abuse of this CT.  Would you feel better if it required a hearing from a committee (i imagine timing/urgency is an issue though).  It's got to be better than a single individual doctor being able to decide.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

the legislation for it was there in 1977 CT

Here it is 
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/publ...18171.html

and the 2020 legislation
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/publ...37600.html

All looks the same to me...

It appears section 11 is whats in question, the big issue i see here is if some practitioners could make a poor judgement, even if it requires 2 to make the decision.
I dont know if the person interviewed is full of shit or not, but it needs investigation.

Okay. I have had time to think about this, so here goes.

CT, I have carried an unexpected pregnancy, discovered the fact late after years of medically diagnosed infertility, and carried that child to full term, so I know what that means. I have also had a surgical termination so I know what that means too. I think both experiences qualify me in ways no male will ever be able to match, to speak about female fertility and the way our communities deal with it.

No termination is  without consequences, just as no pregnancy is without consequences, primarily for the woman doing the hard yards, but also for her wider circle, including the professional one.  And, as it is her body, her psyche, and her life that is at risk, it is entirely her responsibility when it comes to choices and decisions. Anything else is simply unconscionable.

Where late term terminations occur there is always a reason, always consequences, and no uninvolved bystander has any conception or understanding of those, be they legislators, or religious/politically motivated do gooders. Walk a mile in her shoes, then shut the fuck up about it, because CT, there is no way you will ever understand or be expected to understand the cost, the price, of being female and fertile in a world where being female in this world means constant threat to your well being and life.

When male fertility is as legislated, as controlled, and as exploited as female, then maybe we will be a more mature species. Till then hands off things female...

Im not actually against abortion, but there has to be a line drawn in the sand, I agree that there are medical cases where the mother could be in danger and termination necessary.
From the example in the interview I shared, it appears that 2 practitioners can permit a termination for any reason, and thats the issue I have.

The point of the legisalation is to legally protect those involved in the resolution of such an appalling tragedy. Not to encourage people to have or be involved in late stage terminations.

---

It appears section 11 is whats in question, the big issue i see here is if some practitioners could make a poor judgement, even if it requires 2 to make the decision.
I dont know if the person interviewed is full of shit or not, but it needs investigation.
Im not actually against abortion, but there has to be a line drawn in the sand, I agree that there are medical cases where the mother could be in danger and termination necessary.
From the example in the interview I shared, it appears that 2 practitioners can permit a termination for any reason, and thats the issue I have.

The point of the legisalation is to legally protect those involved in the resolution of such an appalling tragedy. Not to encourage people to have or be involved in late stage terminations.

[C_T_Russell]

The requirement for two practitioners is the safeguard against abuse of this CT.  Would you feel better if it required a hearing from a committee (i imagine timing/urgency is an issue though).  It's got to be better than a single individual doctor being able to decide.

I agree, so why was the example in the link I shared even possible? Something doesn't sound right if its that easy to get an abortion,  the mother still had to deliver the baby except dead, only weeks away from giving birth naturally.

[king1]

The requirement for two practitioners is the safeguard against abuse of this CT.  Would you feel better if it required a hearing from a committee (i imagine timing/urgency is an issue though).  It's got to be better than a single individual doctor being able to decide.

I agree, so why was the example in the link I shared even possible? Something doesn't sound right if its that easy to get an abortion,  the mother still had to deliver the baby except dead, only weeks away from giving birth naturally.

and that is precisely the problem with not being privy to all the facts - one cannot truly know.  

Unfortunately some of your sources of information are prone to filling in these unknowns with made up crap as clickbait for the gullible...

[C_T_Russell]

Well I want to get to the bottom of it if she is full of shit.
There needs to be an investigation, why would people make this stuff up?

[Oh_hunnihunni]

Why would you be interested in how other people deal with their own health issues? Especially ones this desperately tragic?

It is never going to happen to you. Nor likely among those you love, so why are you coming back to this again, and again, and again?

Move on. Find something joyous and positive and stop this mud rolling that seems to be a favourite pastime of yours...

[king1]

Well I want to get to the bottom of it if she is full of shit.
There needs to be an investigation, why would people make this stuff up?

I think I actually answered that question in the previous post - something about gullible and clickbait, which in financial terms equals revenue

[C_T_Russell]

Why would you be interested in how other people deal with their own health issues? Especially ones this desperately tragic?

It is never going to happen to you. Nor likely among those you love, so why are you coming back to this again, and again, and again?

Move on. Find something joyous and positive and stop this mud rolling that seems to be a favourite pastime of yours...

Having a baby is apparently a health issue? Protecting human lives I thought would be a top priority.
Why complain about gaza when we needlessly abort babies for selfish reasons.
Use contraception if you dont want kids, you should think about it first before carelessly popping them out.
I know people that have had a number of unplanned pregnancies and still went through with the births because they are decent people with morals (not the religious stereotype either) The father has tied the knot now but at least they did the right thing.

[Oh_hunnihunni]

How about we tell men, that if they don't want women to control their bodies they keep their hands and cocks out of our business?

After all, a woman has to try really hard to start a pregnancy without involving a man, but a man can start one without consequences all too often.

While we talk about decent morals can I respectfully point out men start wars like Gaza, men cause unwanted pregnancies, men seek to control the lives of other human beings, and end them far more often and in greater numbers than any women ever have.

Howabout you lot get some decent morals before you judge others?

[Lilith7]

Why would you be interested in how other people deal with their own health issues? Especially ones this desperately tragic?

It is never going to happen to you. Nor likely among those you love, so why are you coming back to this again, and again, and again?

Move on. Find something joyous and positive and stop this mud rolling that seems to be a favourite pastime of yours...

Having a baby is apparently a health issue? Protecting human lives I thought would be a top priority.
Why complain about gaza when we needlessly abort babies for selfish reasons.
Use contraception if you dont want kids, you should think about it first before carelessly popping them out.
I know people that have had a number of unplanned pregnancies and still went through with the births because they are decent people with morals (not the religious stereotype either) The father has tied the knot now but at least they did the right thing.

Oh ffs! You clearly  don't much like women having autonomy over their own bodies.

How would you feel, if women had power over your body & stipulated that all males on reaching puberty, must have a vasectomy, to be reversed once they reach maturity?  Would you want people without actual direct understanding of the reality of living in a male body to make those decisions about your body, your life?

And YES, a pregnancy can become a health issue - would you rather women died, if having an abortion saves their lives?